Ep. 75: What Kind of Kingdom Did the Old Testament Prophets Foresee: Earthly or Spiritual?

Jacob Winograd [00:00:32]:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Biblical Anarchy Podcast. I am Jacob Winograd. I’m here today. We’re going to continue on some of the things that I’ve been laying out over the last several episodes. Last episode, we dived into Zechariah 14, and I’ve been kind of starting to talk more about eschatology. And I’ve been teasing this probably since last year. It’s stuff that I had always sort of known and believed, but to get it all in pen and paper and make sure it’s properly researched and cited. No.

Jacob Winograd [00:01:09]:
I’m very, I don’t know. I wanna maintain a sense of humility when I’m talking about these topics. And I never want to be playing the game where I feel like I’m reinventing the wheel or, like, Christianity’s gotten it wrong up until just now or even the past few 100 years. I am Protestant insofar as I’m not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or Assyrian church of the East. You know? And any of the churches that claim to be, you know, like, the one true church, I’m not part of them. And so I guess by default, I’m Protestant. But that doesn’t mean I think that the church, like, didn’t exist or was in deep error for 100 of years or 1000 of years up until just very recently, I I think that the church has always contained the truth and that there have been just different periods of time where more or less amount of error and the need for reformation were present at the church. And the church does take different you know, it it’s shaped by the history and the culture that it comes in.

Jacob Winograd [00:02:19]:
So there’s one united universal church, the invisible church, the body of Christ. But then the physical manifestation of that in different areas of the world and different places of time, of course, is gonna vary. But I don’t want to be tied down to be like, well, this has to be explicitly taught by the early church or by church fathers. But I also I’m wary, like, you shouldn’t be bringing something to the table that’s completely new and out of left field, so to speak. So I’ve been trying to for a while now, make sure that I’ve done my homework and, and make sure I can kind of back up the things I’m saying. It’s not just me sort of blowing hot air. Right. And just pontificating on my own thoughts, but rather like this is a view that’s actually deeply rooted in Christian thought Christian theology.

Jacob Winograd [00:03:12]:
So last week we kind of touched on Zechariah 14, as well as style laying the groundwork for what eschatology is differences between pre millennialism, post millennialism and ah, millennialism and sort of the different hermeneutics at play between those different camps. And I talked about sort of a difference between being a textualist and a contextualist, and of course, the difference between a hermeneutic that takes a literalist approach to the text versus one that takes a fulfillment approach. And I think that, of course, that if we take a fulfillment approach, which is a more correct way of reading the Bible and interpreting it, that that sort of Christ as the fulfillment of all things hermeneutic leads us to the millennial perspective when properly understood. And I kind of, I did a kind of a, I don’t know. It was more than a surface level analysis, but it wasn’t quite, you know, an exhaustive deep dive of Zechariah 14. I do plan to kind of go back to that passage. And also the there’s one in Ezekiel, Isaiah, and then I want to kind of end the series that I’m doing in the book of revelation. But while last week was kind of setting the stage, I want to now build a lot of support for this sort of fulfillment hermeneutic that I’ve explained and sort of shown how that works in a passage like Zachariah.

Jacob Winograd [00:04:49]:
Like that’s what basically what we did last week. So I’m going to start in this episode. We’ll see how far we get, but I want to start with old Testament passages that foreshadow the new covenant and the messianic reign. So the kingdom, And I want to explore how these texts have been traditionally interpreted and then also interpreted within the context of the reformed covenant theology, and then kind of give a comprehensive understanding of the historical and textual con, context, and then the theological significance and implications from them. And so I got 8 passages. I don’t know if I’m going to get through all of them in, in one episode. We’ll just see how far we get. If it has to be 2, it has to be 2.

Jacob Winograd [00:05:38]:
I don’t want these episodes to run on for too long, but I don’t wanna have unnatural breaks. That’s just the tough challenge that I have to overcome when I’m talking about a topic that’s this exhaustive. Again, because ex eschatology is not just predicting the future. It’s not just a discussion about the end times, but it’s an understanding of how what happens at the end connects to what’s at the beginning and that there should be one cohesive story. Right? That from beginning to end, God’s redemptive plan was foretold, was brought into reality, and really the final victory was purchased by Christ on the cross and through his resurrection. And then we’re waiting for the culmination of these things to the end of the age, but living in a present reality of them. And the Eschaton should be an exclamation point sort of the final sentence in this story, not something that kind of veers off in a completely different direction or something that’s sort of out of left field. So I wanna go to Jeremiah 31.

Jacob Winograd [00:06:47]:
Pretty important passage to give some historical context for the book of Jeremiah. Jeremiah was a prophet during the late 7th early 6th centuries BC, and this was a very tumultuous time for Judah marked by the Babylonian exile. This passage I’m reading from is part of what’s known as the book of consolation. This is chapters 30 through 33, where Jeremiah offers hope and restoration amidst their sort of like impending doom chapter 31. Sorry, I’m clipping there a little bit. Let me just back that mic off a hair. Chapter 31 speaks of the restoration of Israel and Judah, a promise of a new relationship with God. And then verses 31 to 34, we’re gonna dive into specifically promise a new covenant distinct from the Mosaic covenant characterized by internal transformation.

Jacob Winograd [00:07:43]:
Let’s read the passage here. Behold, the days are coming declares the Lord when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, by covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the lord. But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put my law within them. I will write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor and each his brother saying, know the lord, for they shall all know me. From the least of them to the greatest, declares the lord, for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. So this new covenant being described is different than the old covenant.

Jacob Winograd [00:08:34]:
And it’s pretty clear here that this old covenant has been broken by Israel at this point. I mean, it says explicitly my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband. And we see that this idea we often have this conceptualization of marriage as a reflection of sort of like the relationship between Christ and his bride, the church. Right? Well, this is just a further argument to the idea that the church is a continuation of Israel, because here in Jeremiah, he’s making the same comparison saying that Israel was like this bribe. I was their husband. And so that this new covenant is being made with the same subject matter. And so now when we get to passages like Romans 9 through 11, you know, and also Galatians 3 through 4 Hebrews, you know, talks about how the Gentiles are grafted in and through Christ, who is the, the real offspring of Abraham, the true inheritor of the promises of that covenant, we become inheritors of that covenant through Christ and we’re grafted in. But this is a continuation of sort of that original covenant of that original, you could call it a marriage of sorts.

Jacob Winograd [00:10:01]:
Right? But it is a new covenant, meaning like this was broken, but God, rather than leaving us with just consequences of Israel breaking that covenant promises a new covenant. And he says that we will have our iniquities forgiven and our sins remembered no more. RC Sproul talks about this in his commentaries on Jeremiah. He says, identifying the newness of this covenant is not always easy. Clearly, however, there is an essential continuity between the old covenant made with Israel through Moses and the new covenant made with Israel through Christ. The new covenant is a new addition or renewed version of the old covenant. Thus, the new covenant has much in common with the old. Still the new covenant also has differences.

Jacob Winograd [00:10:56]:
The new covenant, unlike the old covenant, which was broken by the vast majority of ancient Israelites. It this is a hint of the new covenant community as a whole will exhibit a faithfulness to a new covenant that the old covenant community lacked. God makes this happen by writing his law on our hearts, forgiving our inequity and remembering our sin no more. John Calvin in his commentary is right. God speaks to us now openly as it were face to face and not under a veil. As Paul teaches us, when speaking of Moses who put on a veil, he went on when he went forth to address the people in god’s name, under the gospel, the veil is removed. And god, in the face of Christ, presents himself to be seen by us. And so speaking of a new covenant, so what’s being foreshadowed here through this passage is that the old covenant was broken through disobedience and the new covenant will be different because our sins will be forgiven and that we will be made able to actually follow this covenant that we will know the Lord, put his law within them and write it on our hearts.

Jacob Winograd [00:12:12]:
The, this next passage I want to add in here, because it’s the, these two really play off of each other. Ezekiel 36, though Ezekiel was a prophet during the Babylonian exile. This was 6th century BCE. And this addresses the impending judgment of Jerusalem in the hope of future restoration. And chapter 36 describes God’s promise to restore Israel, cleanse them from their impurities, and give them a new heart and spirit. And then picking up in verses 26 through 27, which really ties into Jeremiah 31. I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

Jacob Winograd [00:12:56]:
And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. And so yes, this passage foreshadows the internal renewal brought about by the Holy Spirit in the new covenant. Augustine puts it this way in the city of god. The new heart and spirit are indicative of the sanctifying work that changes believers from within and making them capable of true obedience and faithfulness to god. This internal change is necessary for the fulfillment of the new covenant. And then Sproul, in his commentaries, writes that god’s, god promises to remove the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh, signifying a move from stubbornness to receptiveness to God’s will. This transformation is achieved through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, enabling believers to follow God’s statute and commands faithfully. So this new covenant era, which is heavily tied into the messianic era, right? It doesn’t depend upon human works or effort and how this ties in.

Jacob Winograd [00:14:08]:
This ties into a lot of things that I’ve been talking about lately, right? For one, I would say that when we’re talking about just regardless of your eschatology, when we’re talking about politics and we’re talking about what we think our role as Christian ambassadors is in making Christ’s reign on earth more known and more recognized, or when we’re thinking about potential future re reigns of Christ. One thing is clear is that in the new covenant, obedient to God is not something that is to be just expected of people by their own efforts, but rather that removal of the heart of stone being replaced by the heart of flesh, the law being written into our hearts, the transformation by the Holy Spirit, the regeneration, and then the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us, this is what enables us to then walk in the statute of God, to walk in obedience. And if at any point we are looking to, to government, if we are looking to Jesus himself to come back and force obedience on unsaved unregenerate people, I think that we are missing some of the part of what’s being talked about in these passages. Now judgment can come upon sinners, but that is god’s judgment to carry out. That an important part of covenant theology, which I’ve talked about before on the show, you know, the idea that the mosaic covenant was a sort of eschatological intrusion. There were elements within that temporary period where it was a foreshadowing of the final judgment and the laws were there to punish and have retribution towards sin in a way that was, you know, if they didn’t have some sort of internal transformation, it was punishing them in a way as if they were receiving a taste of what that final judgment was going to be. But that aspect of the law was always to be temporary. And because of this was like a suspension of the normal rules of play because before that, there was no such commands or expectations that nonaggressive sins that just sinning against yourself or against god would be punished by force.

Jacob Winograd [00:16:50]:
Well, when the mosaic covenant goes away, and this is talked about, like, in the book of Hebrews and how law was just, like, sort of temporary guide that was just a foreshadowing of what was to come, Well, now, you know, we’re reminded again in Romans 12 that vengeance belongs to the Lord. And although civil governments have a normative role in adjudicating disputes on property and upholding individual rights, you know, and essentially dealing with matters of aggression, right? The idea of Lex Talionis of just retribution, the judgment for sin is something that rests solely with God. And that in this new covenant, in these passages, we don’t see any indication that, you know, this new covenant is going to be something that depends on outward pressure being applied to sinners to make them sinless, but rather it is sort of a sort of like leaning into this idea. So I’m gonna turn my game down a little bit. But it’s leaning into this idea that this outward pressure that even existed in the mosaic covenant was not sufficient, was unable to bring about obedience and transformation. And so it, the new covenant is like emphasizing the need for an internal transformation to occur. So I want to be clear here. Those without the internal transformation are still guilty and still can be held accountable for their sins, but they should be held accountable by god at the final judgment, not by man today, except whether a sin causes aggression against other people.

Jacob Winograd [00:18:37]:
But otherwise, the new covenant is a is an emphasis on the internal transformation, not an outward pressure. And that’s an important thing to keep in mind when we’re having these conversations. You know, I think this would speak more to sort of the postmillennial outlook, the idea that we have to usher in this golden age of Christianity and make things better and better. Now I think that we should hope and pray for things to improve, and I think that Christians should take an active role in trying to shape and transform culture. But we do that by growing the kingdom through the gospel, by being the conduit by preaching the gospel by which the Holy Spirit then reaches into people’s lives and enacts that internal transformation, not through reverting back to what happened in the old covenant, which didn’t work anyway in which even the Israelites broke, like, and then expecting that that would work today, sort of a distortion of the new covenant. Like, what should our focus be on? Our focus should be on preaching of the gospel, the carrying out of the functions of the church, which means the sacraments, which means the doing the work of the caring for the least of these, the widows, the orphans, the poor, the downtrodden, you know, living missionally. Right? Living as ambassadors and Sojourners, exiles in this land that isn’t our home, that we’ve been called to be a witness to people. But the witness is to tell them of the hope to escape judgment, not to try to accelerate or bring about that judgment now that really is for later.

Jacob Winograd [00:20:21]:
Right now we’re to focus on calling people to repentance and letting the holy spirit call those who will be called to receive that transformation. And we hope that as more people come into the kingdom of god, that that does have secondary effects for our communities and our families and for our even our nations if it goes that far. But that is something that happened as, like, a consequence. And if we put the cart before the horse and then try to use coercion as a means of getting people to not walk in sin, well, that’s just not going to work. We cannot get the results of a changed heart through outward pressure. And not only does just studying the history of ancient Israel show that, but these passages here in Jeremiah and Ezekiel reaffirm this idea that we need that internal transformation to walk in the statutes of God and to be able to do what is right in the eyes of God. As we go on to Isaiah 44, so Isaiah, prophesied during the 8th century BC addressing Judah. Again, some similar themes here, promising restoration and blessing and a future outpouring of God’s spirit.

Jacob Winograd [00:21:42]:
And then chapter 44 assures Israel of God’s continued support and future redemption. And verses 3 through 5 highlight the promise of the spirit’s outpouring as a sign of God’s blessing and presence. Read that here. For I will pour water on a thirsty land and streams on the dry ground. I will pour my spirit upon your offspring and my blessing on your descendants. They shall spring up among the grass like willows by flowing streams. This one will say, I am the Lord’s. Another will call on the name of Jacob.

Jacob Winograd [00:22:16]:
And another will write on his hand, the Lord’s and the name himself and name himself by the name of Israel. So what does this mean? Well, let’s read from an early church father here from Chrysostom. He wrote in his homilies on Isaiah, the outpouring of the spirit is a sign of God’s abundant blessing and a transformative act that renews and revives his people. This passage points forward to the new covenant where the holy spirit plays a central role in the life of believers, transforming and empowering them. RC Sproul, you know, more modern, you know, big reformed figure, wrote that this passage is a is a promise of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which would bring about spiritual renewal and blessings. And this prophecy is seen as fulfilled in the new testament with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, marking the beginning of the new covenant era. So again, we see this idea that what’s being prophesized about, you know, as this future new covenant age, which again I think is to take place at the same time as the messianic age. There’s this idea because of what Jesus marked the purchase of what was required, the payment of sins, the conquering of sin and death, and then, you know, ushers in the new covenant.

Jacob Winograd [00:23:49]:
You know, he said, this is the cup of the new covenant in my blood. Right? So we when we take communion or the Eucharist, that’s what we are drinking this in remembrance of, but it’s symbolic and many Christians believe that we’re partaking in a real spiritual presence of the idea of the essence of Christ’s blood shed for the forgiveness of sins and that this is the new covenant that he has brought about. And so it’s about internal transformation and that this pouring that what’s gonna happen is a pouring out of the spirit onto the land, onto the people so that they will be restored and come back to God. And so this is bolstering the arguments that I’ve already made that we don’t see necessarily here this idea of a new covenant reign that is conquering nations through force. But kind of like we talked about, like, the living waters, you know, and, that were talked about in Zechariah that that reach out from Jerusalem to the entire world, to all the nations. And so the reign of Christ has expanded over the whole earth, you could say. Although there’s still parts of the world where people haven’t heard Christ, which can be crazy to think about. But that’s why we have to, you know, double down in our efforts, not in trying to take control of government, to pass laws, to, you know, create this external apparatus to try to hold people to, but to double down on the mission of being fishers of men and being a being a blessing to the nations.

Jacob Winograd [00:25:32]:
And we do that through our acts of service and through the preaching of the gospel. Let me take a break here for a quick second. So let me just say here this this brief pause that if you appreciate what I’m doing here, please like this video. Or, if you’re on a podcatcher, leave a 5 star review. Subscribe wherever you’re at, if you would, please. So you that way you can get weekly notifications when new episodes come out. And if you’re able to on the podcatchers leave a 5 star review or written review, that also helps tremendously. And I’ll again, plug LCI, insiders.

Jacob Winograd [00:26:11]:
If you donate $10 or more a month, go to biblicalanarchypodcast.com. Look for the donate link. That gets you access to all sorts of perks, free books, discounts on merchandise, things like that. So if you appreciate this content, do what you can to help us here at the Libertarian Christian Institute, be able to continue to put this kind of work in there to advocate for the gospel and a, a free society. So let’s keep going here. Making doing okay on time. I think we’re gonna read from Joel now. So Joel chapter 4 sorry.

Jacob Winograd [00:26:51]:
Joel chapter 2, verses 28 through 29. Now Joel’s exact date, far as I can tell, is not known, but he addresses Judah calls again for kind of repentance and promising future restoration. Chapter 2 calls for repentance and speaks of the day of the Lord, a time of judgment and blessing. Let’s read this. It shall come to pass afterward that I shall pour out my spirit on all flesh. Your sons and daughters shall prophesy. Your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions even on the male and female servants in those days, I will pour out my spirit. Again, you can see commentaries from Sproul, Calvin, early church fathers.

Jacob Winograd [00:27:42]:
Again, this is sort of the way in which the new covenant in it’s often you know, there’s times where, like in Jeremiah, it’s explicit. Like, there’s gonna be a new covenant, but it’s not just there. There’s so many hints and foreshadowings of this future pouring out of the spirit and ushering in of a of a new covenant, of a significant shift in god’s relationship with his people. And this just further emphasizes the idea of that being about inward transformation by the spirit. So let’s see here. We pick out the next passage that I want to read. I have I have so much here, and I I a lot of them kind of say close to the same thing, but alright. Give me a second here.

Jacob Winograd [00:28:33]:
Alright. So a lot of those were I have a lot more that could go that talk about this new covenant, and I’ll probably go back to some of those. But let’s talk about some of the ones that talk more about explicitly the messiah in the context of the messianic kingdom. I wanna get to a couple of those. So let’s go to Isaiah 9. That’s a very key passage in all this. For to us, a child is born. To us, a son is given.

Jacob Winograd [00:29:01]:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder. And his name shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty god, everlasting father, prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. So is this then speaking to a literal reign that Christ has to come down and literally reign, and that his government will just increase and increase, and it’ll uphold justice as it says here, and bring peace to all nations of this to be understood as, like, a literal time in which this will this will be, like, literal physical events happening on earth. Well, I’m gonna read from 2, theologians here. Athanasius of Alexandria, who was a Christian theologian. He was in between 396 to 373.

Jacob Winograd [00:30:09]:
He’s a church father. He was a bishop in Alexandria. And he he’s best known for his defense against Arianism and his work on the incarnation. Arianism was an early church heresy that a lot of church fathers had to work hard to repel. But here’s what Athanasius wrote. He said on this passage, for this is from on the incarnation. The throne of David is no longer an earthly throne, but a symbol of the eternal reign of Christ who rules spiritually over the hearts of believers and will ultimately bring peace and justice in the fullest sense in the new creation. And so that that’s an early church father, and we can fast forward to John Calvin.

Jacob Winograd [00:30:56]:
People should know who John Calvin is. He French theologian. He’s the founder of, you know not like I don’t think he set out to found Calvinism, but he’s where Calvinism gets its namesake from. But in his commentary on Isaiah, he writes, this prophecy denotes not only the first coming of Christ, but also the continuous increase and eternal establishment of his kingdom, which is spiritual in nature. And so Calvin emphasizes that the kingdom, of Christ begins here on earth, but it’s consummated in the eternal state in, in a, in a spiritual sense. So will there be peace in a literal sense? Like, yeah, but is that, is that like limited? Because again, we don’t struggle against flesh and blood. Right. And this idea that peace would just be, well, all the kingdoms and governments on the earth will be United by an earthly ruler and end all physical conflicts.

Jacob Winograd [00:32:02]:
And don’t get me wrong. You know, the libertarian who cares a lot about war and who, you know, you guys who’ve listened to my show for a while know that I a lot of my content that’s not theology is based on politics and really, you know, heavy emphasis on the role that governments play in causing and provoking wars and waging war and this the human devastation destruction that happens from this. But I wanna emphasize that the peace that the messiah is gonna bring is not just like an end to physical conflict, but we need to, of course, pray for that, but we should also be praying for a peace that is greater than that. A peace that’s between not just man and his fellow man, but a peace between man and god. Right? And that and that the nations would not just end their wars against each other, but that they would end their rebellion against God. They’d be reconciled. That mankind would be reconciled back to the father. And that this is what the idea of the veil being torn, that separation between us and god.

Jacob Winograd [00:33:10]:
You know, that’s what it’s being spoken to. And so, you know, you know, amillennialists, we believe in a second coming. We believe that Christ is the prince of peace, wonderful counselor, and that there will be justice and righteousness forevermore and that the a peace without ending. But that peace is not to be seen in some future physical reign. Although we can hope for, again, these secondary effects of the new covenant era that as we draw people into Christ’s kingdom and we increase the gospel here on earth, that this does have a effect of bringing some peace to our communities, to our families, hopefully even our nations. Right? But we do this through that again, the aspect of the new covenant that focuses on internal transformation and changed hearts. And that is how Christ achieves peace. And, you know, those who don’t become inheritors of the promises of Abraham, yes, they will face their final judgment at the end of days, at the end of the age.

Jacob Winograd [00:34:24]:
But at that point, you know, there won’t be this need for some kind of physical kingdom to force people to obey. It’s just that the sheep and the goats will be separated and that those who are in Christ, they will be saved. They will persevere to the end, and they will do that not because of laws or not because of their own works, but because of the internal transformation that comes through what Christ does. And this isn’t some kind of novel interpretation of Isaiah 9 here, which is often used not just by sometimes premillennialists and postmillennialists. You’ll hear Jewish objectors to Jesus as the messiah say, well, look. Jesus didn’t do this. He didn’t establish a kingdom that brought peace that increased with no end. Well, you know, Athanasius, Calvin, many others throughout church history have in interpreted this passage to understand it, not as talking about a mere physical transpiring event, but an eternal spiritual reality that, you know, again, that already not yet aspect to to Christ’s kingdom and Christ’s victory over sin and death.

Jacob Winograd [00:35:38]:
Yeah. Jeremiah 23:5 through 6, behold, the days are coming declares the Lord, where I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. And in his days, Judah will be saved and Israel will dwell securely, and this is the name by which he will be called. The Lord is our righteousness. Again, I wanna pick kind of an early and a late church father here. Do you know how what is this passage talking about? Well, Cyril I always forget to look up pronunciations. I think it’s Cyril of Alexandria. He says in his commentary on Jeremiah and Cyril of Alexandria was the patriarch of Alexandra from 412 to 444.

Jacob Winograd [00:36:29]:
He’s a early church figure, played a central role in the there’s a lot of Christological controversies at the time. But these people kind of set the record straight on who Christ was and what the trinity was and all that. So they have a lot of wisdom we can draw from, and we can look at to their interpretations of these passages and hold those with some measure of, you know, respect and competence in in their interpretation. He says that this prophecy points to the messianic reign of Christ, which is both present and future. His reign begins with his first coming and the establishment of his church, but will be fully realized in the new heavens and new earth. John Gill, he is a, English Baptist pastor, and he was also a Calvinist from the 1700. In his exposition of the bible, he wrote of this passage that the righteous branch is the messiah who brings a spiritual kingdom characterized by justice and righteousness. His reign ensures the salvation and security of his people, which begins now and is fully consummated in the future state.

Jacob Winograd [00:37:42]:
So the yeah. Like, there there’s a lot more passages that I could continue to go into. And I’m sorry I keep clipping it. Trying to adjust my mic a little bit on the fly here. There are so many more passages that I have to go through here. So I’ll probably select the next few I wanna go through at next episode. But the ones I picked out here, I think, really draw this theme that I’m getting at, you know, and really make it clear that, I mean, a, I think we can see that the idea of how am amillennialists and those who kind of see a lot of these prophecies through a fulfillment lens, how this isn’t novel and this isn’t at odds with what Christians throughout history have done. And there’s a lot of this throughout the old testament.

Jacob Winograd [00:38:32]:
And so, like, when we eventually get to looking at new testament passages, even in revelation, and we’re talking about future events. We’re talking about the reign of Christ. I’m not saying, like, we should be full and act like everything’s already in the past and spiritualize everything. I think there will be a final judgment. I think that there will be a second coming of Christ. And I I’m not even saying I write off, like, can I know with certainty that there perhaps isn’t a future physical reign of Christ? I mean, I can’t know with certainty, but what I do know is that these passages are not giving a lot of credence to the idea of the necessity of a future physical reign of Christ. That’s why I don’t fall into those camps because it seems that what matters to the new covenant and to the messianic reign is not the establishment of some sort of government to then be used in executing coercion and pressure to bring about obedience, but rather we see that the peace that is spoken of in the messianic reign ties into the spiritual transformation that’s spoken about as a key aspect that distinguishes the new covenant from the old covenant. And so if we don’t get this right, we’re gonna get a lot of the other interpretations wrong.

Jacob Winograd [00:40:05]:
If we don’t have within our framework an understanding that in the eschaton and until we get to the eschaton, the key signifiers of the new covenant are internal transformation and that the peace that is being achieved by the messianic reign is through this idea of internal transformation. That it’s not about the establishment of some sort of, like, monopolistic force of government that then overtakes the entire world, but that rather Christ’s kingdom was established by his first coming and continues to the end of the age, but that he’s reigning spiritually now through the hearts of believers and that his righteous reign currently is seen through this and grown through the spread of the gospel. Is spread through enacting that, as we are the vessels by which God uses to draw, and he uses the holy spirit, but he uses the preaching of the gospel to enact the drawing of the holy spirit and to draw those into those people into communion, with the body of Christ. And that’s that is what our job is. That’s what our focus should be. And I love that passage from Isaiah 9, for to us a child is born, son is given, the government shall be on his shoulder, and his name shall be wonderful counselor, mighty god, everlasting father, prince of peace. And so the increase of his government and peace will be no end. This isn’t denoting a kingdom that is spread through blood and war and through coercion and violence.

Jacob Winograd [00:41:55]:
He’s a wonderful counselor. He is the prince of peace. And that is, you know, a lot of times the postmillennialists and the premillennialists, they sort of describe Jesus in a way where it’s like, well, he was, you know, he’s going to be this mighty conqueror, and he’s going to be this this very, you know, very violent ruler. And just the very gentle, the very meek Jesus described in the new testament, like, well, that’s just, like, you know, I guess, like a bait and switch and that he came and he subverted expectations, but it’s really just like, oh, well, don’t worry, guys. Like, I’m gonna come back and, you know, bust some skulls open here, but just you gotta wait , you know, however many 1000 years till until the second coming. Well, why would Christ act in such a way contrary to his nature? Rather, Christ is constantly even to his own apostles saying, you don’t understand what this new kingdom’s about. You don’t under you don’t really understand what this new covenant that I’m enacting is about. And that it’s not about power and positions, and it’s not about he’s like, listen.

Jacob Winograd [00:43:08]:
Like I said, you should be perfect like my father is perfect in heaven, but you’re not gonna get there on your own. And this is about redemption. It’s about what was promised at the beginning in the garden that this the serpent’s head will be crushed at the same time that the offspring of Eve’s heel is bruised. And that that’s what has always been pointed towards. And when Jesus walked the earth, yes, he condemned sin. Yes. He called us to righteousness, to obedience. But he knew that he had to complete his mission on the cross.

Jacob Winograd [00:43:41]:
He had to conquer sin and death. He had to usher in this new covenant to then bring us into right standing with god to give us that heart of flesh. And his interactions with people was and his teachings were not aimed at describing the kingdom of god as this sort of, like, this violent force, but rather, like, he described it to, like, a, a I forget which exact chapter and verse it is, but it’s the where it’s like a little bit of leaven in the bread and how it doesn’t take much, but then it transforms the entire bread. Let me look this up. Parable of yeah. The parable of the mustard seed and the leaven. This is in Matthew 33 and also Luke 13. But he uses this story to just illustrate the kingdom of God.

Jacob Winograd [00:44:37]:
Woman takes yeast and leaven, mixes it into the dough, and eventually, the whole dough is leavened. And again, this is going to have physical manifestations in the eschaton, but that this isn’t describing, like, this doesn’t map onto this neat metaphor, you know, this parable that, that, that Christ gives us. It’s again about transformation, not about conquering. And we know that transformation doesn’t come through the law. As Paul talks about, like, in Romans and, like, Romans, like, 7 and 8, how the law was good because it made us realize that we’re sinners, but the law isn’t what transformed us. The law isn’t what got us to right standing with god. But rather what we needed was that internal transformation. What we needed was to be given the heart of flesh.

Jacob Winograd [00:45:26]:
You know, yeast is microscopic in size. Right? Like, it’s this small thing You knead it into the dough and you give it time, and suddenly the whole dough is and that’s how the gospel spreads to the entire world. It’s not always going to be like this, like, super noticeable thing. It’s not like this outward, you know, like, we’re forcing the dough to rise. Like, no. It’s an internal transformation that’s very subtle, and it can seem to be happening slow if you’re sitting there watching it, but it happens. It overtakes the entire dough. Right? And that’s what our job is, is to go out there and grow the kingdom of god, to be ambassadors for that that kingdom.

Jacob Winograd [00:46:05]:
But to realize that this earth isn’t quite our home, and the transformations that we can achieve, they’re not gonna be we’re not using the same means. We’re not fighting battles in the same way that the world fights battles. Like, isn’t that even true of, like, how ancient Israel won their battles? They didn’t win through might and strength. I mean, think of the battle of Jericho. Think of Gideon, you know, and the whittling down the numbers. Like, god well, god won through his might, but not through the might of men. Right? And so there’s so much about even in ancient Israel where you see the typology at play. You see the foreshadowing and the constant theme that god’s ways are not our ways.

Jacob Winograd [00:46:48]:
And when we’re expecting god to comport to our understanding of, like, what earthly kings do, what earthly nations do, and that they’re gonna be conquering and they’re going to be, you know, heavy handed and using the law like a whip to crack down on people, yes, in the final balance of sins, there is judgment for sins. But in terms of what happens on this earth, in terms of what the new covenant and messianic reign are about, we’re mixing what god’s role is as the final judge of sin and the eschaton with what the role of the church is here in the present church age and the new covenant age where the messiah is currently reigning. So that’s all I have for you guys today. I hope that made sense. Again, I have a lot that I wanna talk about. And week to week, I’m kind of like taking my, I’m probably gonna eventually turn a lot of these notes into articles as well. But I’m talking this stuff out because, like, I have so much that I’ve been reading about, so much I’ve been, you know, things I’ve been thinking about for years. And I I’ve put a lot of time into trying to make sure that I can make these arguments and put them out there to describe the relationship between these, you know, political debates that we get into, these political tensions that we find ourselves discussing and theology and what the Bible teaches.

Jacob Winograd [00:48:19]:
And that’s really what my heart is aimed at and what I feel called to speak to. And I’m working like, it’s like I know what I wanna say, but I have to you know, like, the sometimes you can only think things out so much and write them out so much, but sometimes you gotta say them out loud. And there’s something about, you know, like, god didn’t think, and then the world was created. Right? Like, in Genesis, he’s like, he spoke. He always spoke it into existence, and there’s something about speech that’s especially important to the pursuit of truth and understanding. And so that’s kinda what I do here. It’s like I take these things, and I have a good I can kind of a good idea of what I’m gonna talk about before I get into an episode, but it always it’s like 90% there, and the other 10%, I figured out while I’m going, hopefully, at least. Hopefully, you guys made sense of this.

Jacob Winograd [00:49:09]:
That’s all I have for you guys today. Looking forward to probably wrapping up sort of an old testament view in next week’s episode. And then after that, we’ll kinda get more into some of the new testament passages as well. But other than that, live at peace. Live for Christ. Live counterculture to the empire of man, and pursue that kingdom reality on earth. Go out there and be fishers of men. Talk to you next week.

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