No Kings? Actually, No King But Christ! Exciting New Album with Ancap Tim

The State Is A Mafia with Ancap Tim Final
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[00:00:00] Jacob Winograd (2): Every Christian says Christ is king, but what does that actually mean when we live in a world that’s ruled by states and earthly kingdoms, kingdoms of man, and not Christ’s kingdom. Tonight I’m joined by Ann Ka Tim, who is a Christian anarchist songwriter whose new album The State is a Mafia Throughout the all of his songs and the lyrics wrestles with that very question through music.

That’s what we’re here to talk about tonight here in the LCI Green Room.

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[00:00:40] Jacob Winograd (2): Hello everybody.

So yeah, we’re getting into the the fall and winter stretch. I, of course now that it’s October, I have a a local October Fest craft beer. To match my, and I’m, I, I am re for those of you who are wondering, I know there were some of you who were disappointed when I trimmed it. That was my wife’s call.

She’s the boss when it comes to, I mean, basically everything I do, I’m, I’m sort of, a an infant when it comes to taking care of myself. My, my wife dresses me, my wife is a hairstylist, so she grooms me, but she does let me in the fall through the early winter months, grow out my beard. I know a lot of you enjoyed that last, last winter, just kind of tracking my beard length.

We, we we’re getting an early start. It’s not quite at the, the full length yet, but we’re gonna catch back up there. So, you can track the progress, right? We’ll do like a, a weekly beard counter, see how long it takes to get back to, to, to maximum beard jro because I’m ethnically Jewish.

So our beards don’t really grow down. They just curl and go all over the place and stuff like that. But no, I’m I’m excited for the fall schedule coming up. We have a lot of cool guests in, in the works, a lot of cool episodes that we’re gonna be planning to do. And definitely make sure again, that you’re subscribed and check in with everyone.

At [00:02:00] LCI at our Christians for Liberty network does, the Green Room is just one of our shows, and there’s a whole slew of other podcast hosts who sometimes even come on the green room. And we’re all here to talk about what it means to declare Christ as king. And that’s what my guest is in waiting in the wings to talk about tonight.

Again, his name is Ann Ka Tim with his recently released debut album, the State is a Mafia, so I’m gonna bring him up now. Tim, it’s your first time on the program. I wanna give you a chance to just introduce yourself, share anything about your background that you think might be interesting and you knows, let’s start with the, the basics, right?

Your, your Libertarian Christian origin story. I like to call it like you have alcoholics anonymous, right? For recovering alcoholics, we can say it’s like, status anonymous, right? Like, so you’re recovering status, you’ve denounced your, your loyalty and allegiance to the state.

But like, when did that happen ?

[00:02:55] ANCAP Tim: I’m a preacher’s kid. Not to say that I was always Christian, ’cause I do believe the gospel message is real and you have to accept it. But I did accept Christ at an early age. I was around nine years old and people would always use that term saved.

And I was like, you just, like, you’re driving down the road. You saved me from a car accident, you know, and, but kind of just curious. Asked my dad. He was a pastor and he, he ended up leaving me to Christ right there in his home office. So that’s, that’s my beginnings of Christianity. And I was Mr.

Republican for in my high school years, which was weird. I was that weird kid that like, was like politics. I had a most changed shirt that I wore. Sad. I mean, I had George W. Bush on my 18th birthday cake, like his face you know, one of the printout thing. Yeah. Really sad stuff. So getting from that to libertarianism was a journey.

I think it was a lot like a lot of people. But [00:04:00] Ron Paul was the catalyst that, that woke me up to this two party systems of joke and. Maybe we shouldn’t be fighting all these wars all the time. Sound money in the fed, these type things. So we ran in the primary, what was that in oh eight, I guess.

That really, I didn’t quite agree with him, but we got the, the wheels at the turning in my head, so to speak. And then it went from there the next time in 12 I, I was, I traded in my bush chain shirt for a Ron Paul Revolution shirt, you know, so I, I was definitely in the training camp had had the error of my ways of statism the, the Warhol of the Republican party and, and, and then started to really kind of.

Look at and apply that to my Christianity. How did Jesus is the Prince of peace, so how can I, how can I be supporting those wars? How can I support the Iraq war? How can I support all these wars of oppression? And so that really led me down a path. It took quite a few years to finally get to anarchy, Christian anarchy.

But Ron Paul was definitely the catalyst that lived that. And Larkin Rose met him, kinda introduced to him along the way. Other writers, you know, I started reading some of the books that people would tell me to read Rothberg how you, how you say that. And so it’s been a, a slow journey, but I think by the time 2016 came along, I was pretty much done with, with politics.

So, so I went from. Being so proud in oh four to be able to vote for George W. Bush and having him on my 18th birthday cake to I guess a little over 10 years. But I was pretty much off of that and pretty firmly and libertarianism monarchy.

[00:05:52] Jacob Winograd: Right on. Yeah, I missed the Ron Paul train. Unfortunately, I, I was aware of Ron Paul, so I was very [00:06:00] politically active and, and curious in, in my school years as well.

I was a bit of a mixed bag politically, had like some right wing views, some left-wing views, which is probably, you know, somewhat due to public school indoctrination, mixed with my hardcore Republican evangelical upbringing. So I just had this like, you know, mix of Republican propaganda and, you know, left wing progressive propaganda spinning around in my young mind.

But I was on my speech and debate team, so I paid attention to current events. I was very politically opinionated and, and motivated. And I just remember, I, I think I’ve said this story a lot of times on the show, but it just, it cracks me up now just like when you think about things you said when you were younger and things you heard when you were younger.

And I remember our, so funnily enough, our speech and debate coach, when I first joined and got really act, so like in my, my sophomore year, he was a Republican, but he was talking about like the Republican race and he was a I guess at that point in time it would’ve been was it, was it mcc? Was it McCain or, yeah, I think it was McCain.

And he was a talking bad about Ron Paul. And I was like, so what, what’s wrong with Ron Paul? And he’s like, well, he’s crazy. You know what he wants to do? He wants to abolish the IRS. Of course, me being a young, you know, like sophomore, I was like, oh yeah, of course. That’s well, how, how horrible of abolishing the IRS And that’s just one of those things now that like, this sticks out in my head.

It was just like I wish I would’ve had a little bit more curiosity, I guess. But I guess I wasn’t ready to go down that journey. But, but certainly, you know, once I was introduced to Ron Paul later on, went back and watched his clips, I, I was a little jealous of people who kind of got woken up during during his, his presidential campaigns and just his presence in Congress and his discourse since then.

So, I wanna talk a little bit about why you decided to make. This [00:08:00] venture into making music and sort of like, what led to that? Was that something you had always been thinking about? You know, what’s your background in music and what, what led to, you know, was it like you started with one song and it just sort of, unfolded from there?

How did you how did you even, like, what’s your process for like writing the music and for thinking of the lyrics and, and putting all that together? I’d just be curious to kind of hear what that journey was like for

[00:08:26] ANCAP Tim: you raised in church and So smaller churches and so my uncle always played piano, bass, guitar or something.

And so, or I guess around maybe 14, 15, somewhere in there I started learning to play the bass guitar and my uncle taught me and I kind of went from there to piano and, and ended up. Been kind of going into more recording side of music and went interned at some studios when I was 18, fresh outta high school, I moved to Asheville, North Carolina and learned a lot in the studios, interning there, and then finally got some pay in bids doing audio engineering.

And then I started doing a little bit more of music, started singing, and then went to so little bit of bible college. And then I my dad was in need. He was at a bigger church. He was, he was in need of a music minister and need that. I had been, the church that I was going to in Ashville had been doing a lot with music and singing, and so just kind of worked into that.

So I, I then, I was a minister at my dad’s church for some years or so. Then I went on the road with a good friend of mine, a good songwriter, and I had never written any music. And, but I, I got to watch him do it and, and the process and, and we formed a little, like a Christian band, Avery Road. We named it after my, my first daughter be who only, only lived seven weeks to born [00:10:00] premature.

But even in that horrible thing that there was seven people that gave their hearts of Jesus at her, at her funeral, you know, so it was, it was kind of, kind of cool to see how God worked even in something horrible like, and so I, I felt that you gonna be a good banner to, to share her story, you know, because she’s, she’s not here.

And so we, we formed that, that band called Avery Road, did that for about three and a half years, right up until COVID and COVID, you know, all the churches were shutting down, doing, doing remote or, you know, whatever they were doing. And I was a very angry person during those times. Not, not number one, seeing the churches shut down.

It affected us because we were going to these churches. The sing, it was kind of a livelihood. But then also from a a, this a standpoint like this is stupid. Like, well why are we, why are we listening to the state? Tell us all this monsoon and, and, and why are Christians like obeying the, these governor’s mandates and, and different things.

And so I was a very angry person in 2020. Yeah, got kicked out of a lot of establishments. You know, I would always leave if they told me to leave, but I, I, I’d push the envelope to, you know, I, I’ve always been a little bit of rebellious type. So COVID was just off on me. ‘Cause I just would not do what they, what the masses wanted everybody to do.

I just like, no. Not doing what? I’m not putting on the mask, not, not gonna, stand six feet away from people and not, you know, I just not doing sorry. And so that I noticed myself just getting very angry. And so writing for me was an outlet for my anger. And so I would just start writing on my phone, pulling up notepads started with just song ideas, just names of songs.

I think one of the first ones I came up with were, was the cryptocurrency [00:12:00] blues. And that that’s a real life experience of, of how, if I still had the Bitcoin that I had back in 2010, it just makes me sick. So I’ve done the math, I’ve stopped doing the math, but I did the math one time and it, it, it was like, I need to, I need to put this pain into your song.

It’s a good balloon song. And it just, that was the process. I, I would come up with a. A title a thing and then go from there. One of the first ones that I really got done, it kind of, it kicked, kicked me off into the, the songwriting process was the parody on the album that I do of a Billy Joel song called we Didn’t Start The Fire and It’s, we didn’t start the Scheming.

So there’s a template there already. You know, I’m, I’m, I’m doing Wil Weird Al Yankee bit, you know, I’m, I’m making a par of this song. I’ve got his rhyme his, what you call it outline for, you know, how he’s gonna rhyme off of which, which line like two and four, or sometimes they, I, you know, three and one and three.

And so I was like, okay, hey, I, I’m gonna just do this just for kicks. And that was really one of the first songs I did. And that kind of, I don’t know, it was funny. And I was like, well, maybe I’ll try to write my own stuff. Even though a parody is your own writing, that, that you’re, you’re using the music and the melody of something else.

So I was like, I’m a pretty musical guy. Why I, why don’t I try my hand at doing the whole, the whole process? And so that’s kind of where it started and it just went from there. Got these songs and just made some demos, sent ’em out to a bunch of people and they’re like, you should just do something to this.

A lot of them said, you know, even if it’s just for yourself, just just put ’em out there. And, and me being a studio guy by trade, I didn’t have to like, go into, into debt to record these things. I have a pretty decent recording set up if I still do mixing edits for people. And so that process was pretty easy for me.

And yeah, that, that’s [00:14:00] just kind of how this thing came to be. COVID brought the worst out in me and so I just tried to. Come up with an outlet to channel a little bit of that anger.

[00:14:10] Jacob Winograd: Yeah, no, it makes sense. COVID was definitely a hard time, I think for a lot of us. Certainly. I mean, that’s when I started my podcast was after COVID because I just felt like I needed to do, do something not just talk about it online and on Facebook and things like that. Yeah. I was listening actually just today to the song that you were mentioning.

The we didn’t start the scheming and I was, I was like going through and like making sure that like, there wasn’t anything I, it was almost like a test, like, are there any references here that I don’t know. ’cause if not, then I feel like I have to hand in my and CAP card. I think I pretty much got all of them.

I mean, some of them were, were, were, kind of basic and some of them are, are more overt. References to, you know, either all actual like historical events. Like part of it was almost like, it felt like you were like just telling the story of America from like, FREEAMERICA exception America all the way to present day, you know?

Yeah, I think some of the stuff like some, the stuff in the middle is probably a little bit harder for people to, if they’re not if they’re not un indoctrinated, let’s to say you know, the Tuskegee experiments, the MK Ultra the Gulf of Tonkin, Vietnam, the Bay of Pigs, and and all that. So, and you have stuff in there about petrodollar and money laundering and things like that.

It reminds me of another song you wrote, which stuck out to me the title at a Rothchild rag and the idea of that song being that nations rise and Fall, but, but. The the ledgers of the banks continue on. Right. And I feel like that’s something that maybe I don’t know. I, I feel like sometimes in, in libertarian anarchist circles, we like, we’ll talk about the Federal Reserve, but it’s hard, I don’t know if you struggle with this.

Sometimes it’s hard to get into like, the Rothchild [00:16:00] stuff and talking about the role that, big banks and, and you know, like elites and money play without like, sounding too conspiratorial or, you know, there are some people who take those things and probably, run off in directions that are not Christlike in terms of you know, equating bankers with with, with the Jewish people broadly speaking and things like that.

So it’s a little bit. It’s a little bit tough there sometimes. I think some people hear the word rothchild and they just kind of like roll their eyes, like they but I don’t know. I think there’s something like when you, like I, I remember studying the history of just Zionism and how that led to the creation of the state of Israel.

And yeah, I mean it’s, it’s, I guess it’s somewhat conspiratorial, but there are conspiracies that happen, right? Like I think COVID kind of proved that. And certainly bankers I guess they’re not the entire picture, but they’re a huge picture of it. And how do you separate that? Maybe like, a good question on that would be ’cause you’re an ancap, right?

Which means you’re pro-free markets and there’s sometimes a little bit of. Surface level tension when you’re trying to be like, well, no, I’m a free market guy. I don’t have a problem with people making money or making profit or anything like that. But also I’m criticizing the bankers and, and the effect that money has on politics.

So, how do you approach that if someone is to like, perhaps, I don’t know, like, think that there’s maybe somewhat of a tension or contradiction with that

[00:17:30] ANCAP Tim: first and say that yeah. Rothchild is not about a race, it’s not about unionism. Well, Jews as a, as a race. But yeah, there, there’s definitely something there.

There’s something there with the Zionist. There’s a reason that a country, the size of New Jersey with 8 million people has the power over the world that it does, especially United States. I mean that it, there’s gotta be some conspiracy in that. It just doesn’t [00:18:00] make sense that a country that small with, with 8 million people would, would be able to have the influence that they have.

It, it is, you know, there’s something there, but it, it is not a race thing. But the song, Rothchild Reg is about the Rothchild giving the cheap music, so to speak to the central bankers. So now the central bankers wrote the symphony off of that. The Rothchild laid the groundwork for what we now have.

It was far as central bank system and as far as the Federal Reserve. So that, that, that’s, that’s really what the Rothchild brag is about. We’re all dancing along through this system that the Rothchilds came up with. It’s not saying that the Rothchild own everything, even though there couldn’t prove to that.

I’m not downplaying any conspiracy. The point of the song is to say that this, this rag was written a long time ago and we’re still dancing along to it. Just may be different, different faces. But yeah. Now capitalism, you would say, well, banking is a part of capitalism. Sure, I have no problem with banking.

But when, when banking becomes mixed with the state, therein lies the problem. Anything that becomes mixed with the state becomes a problem. And I think if you’re a true ancap, you would have to say that any kind of industry and business, it’s mixed with government gets government subsidies and can’t stand on their own two feet.

It’s not very amped. And so I’m not gonna defend it. When banks get, get bailed out, there’s nothing endcap about that. Right. And that’s fascism. That’s that. Could keep going, but the banks are totally stayed owned and that, that’s communism. So yeah, I,

[00:19:46] Jacob Winograd: socialism for the rich is essentially what it, it boils down to.

And I remember I used, I maybe as I grad, graduated high school and you know, kinda moved out with working on my own. I started to [00:20:00] lean more leftward and I was definitely sort of caught up in like the Occupy movement and like Bernie Sanders and I, I kind of attribute that and like progressives who were against corporations and banks and things like that.

And like two big to fail as like, they were like so close to the truth in a way, you know what I mean? Because like they’re kind of looking at the right problems and even some of the right culprits, but with the wrong economic understanding ’cause like they’re kind of blaming it on a free market that doesn’t exist.

Because like in a free market, banks are not too big to fail. Corporations don’t get shielded from the consequences of their actions, either, either financially or legally. Right? You don’t have cheap money from the federal reserves. So there, there’s all sorts of distortions and I think it’s, it’s one of those things that’s tough because sometimes we’re sort of simultaneously comparing the American economy to other economies in the world and going, well, we have more elements of a free market than they do, and this is why our economy is better.

But then it’s also like, but don’t get us wrong, this is not a free market, right? So it’s, you gotta be careful to not to kind of walk that line because like, I guess it does get worse. Than what we have. But that doesn’t mean that what we have is, is good by any means. And really it’s it’s just getting worse.

You know, it’s funny, I I’m, I’m thinking about, you know, of course on the other side of the talk about fiat currency and the Federal Reserve is Bitcoin. And yeah. Do I felt like, I don’t know how much that was, like your own personal experience, but man, I, when I first heard Bitcoin Blues, I felt like it was like telling my story because there’s been so many times that I like had Bitcoin and then especially like during COVID where I lost my job and I had a whole like, big [00:22:00] career uplift and yeah, there were times I had to sell Bitcoin, unfortunately, just to kind of like make ends meet.

And I got, I think I sold it around 20 or 30,000 and was thinking, you know what, it’s fine. It’s bound to come back down and I’ll buy it when it’s cheaper and, you know. Yeah. That hasn’t quite worked out for me yet, so, I’m definitely seeing those Bitcoin blues a lot.

[00:22:22] ANCAP Tim: Yeah. Hey, and, and you touched on something I think is very, very important.

You’re talking about how hot to occupy a Wall Street movement had a lot of truth to it. They’re really big. ’cause Yeah, they, they would mislabel capitalism or, you know, they would call what we have capitalism as they pointed out. It’s not, it’s, it’s more corporatism what we have. But if, if Occupy movement could have understand, understood that they were so close to the Tea Party movement, and if those two could have got together and, and, and shook hands, yeah.

I mean it would’ve been, it would’ve been a game changer.

[00:22:58] Jacob Winograd: But isn’t, but, but like what happened right after that, you have Trump and then you have like identity politics and culture war nonsense dialed up to like 11. Of course, it’s just divide and conquer. It’s like, and I’m a pretty conservative Christian.

I hold traditional views on marriage and sexuality and drug use and, and all of that. But at the same time, I can recognize, just like with this Charlie Kirk stuff that happened recently, right? I can recognize, and I’m not trying to like overstate this and say that I’m convinced that it was a, you know, false flag or political assassination by the CIA or Mossad, or like, I don’t know, right?

Like I, I have the humility to say, I don’t know what exactly happened there. What I will say is that when something is like just too convenient to kind of be like, put it this way, no good crisis goes to waste. Even if it was an organic crisis, you can tell that the, for the powers that be and the media [00:24:00] apparatuses are all trying to cash in on this crisis to convince you that the real enemy is that people who dress different than you or believe differently than you and eat differently than you, or even talk differently than you.

Because I, yeah, I think if it weren’t for that, you would have a sort of natural alliance between, occupy progressives and Tea party conservatives of Libertarians. We even see some of that emerging anyway now, like I I’m, I’m friends with Dave Smith and it’s funny, when I was a more progressive guy, I used to watch the Young Turks, and it’s funny, I’ve seen Dave Smith start collaborating with Czech Hugger of the Young Turks, and they basically say, Hey, we don’t a hundred percent agree on like economics or cultural beliefs.

We know the real enemy is the state and the elites. So like we’re gonna work together to fight our common enemies and not focus on fighting each other when our differences are kind of just more about personal preferences and how we want to peaceably live. Like as long as we’re not trying to force each other to, to live the way the other one wants to live, we really shouldn’t have any beef with one another.

And I don’t see any reason we can’t have that, except for the state and all the connected corporate and media apparatuses that, that wanna play up that tension. Whether it’s done, intentionally or that’s just the incentive structure. Right. Right.

[00:25:28] ANCAP Tim: Here in the last year, you’ve, you’ve seen a little bit of alliance come back between the left and the right, but yeah, they always want to just that divide between the left and right. It’s always the, as the right we call it the, the purple headed trans people, you know, and, and then the, the left makes it you all a bunch of racist, they, they love that divide.

And, and the reality is there’s not that many blue headed, purple headed trans people. There really isn’t. And there’s not that many racists on the right, still [00:26:00] left. Like, so it’s just, it, it’s the boogeyman for either side to get ’em going.

[00:26:05] Jacob Winograd: Right.

[00:26:05] ANCAP Tim: But, but you see with the whole Epstein thing, I was kind of jerk encouraged to get, especially on the right, they were kind of finally, okay, maybe Trump’s not this guy that we think he’s just as plugged in as, as all of them.

They’re just as evil. And then Charlie Kirk dies and it’s almost like he reigned, well, I’m not saying he did it ’cause I’m not, I’m not saying Trump did it, but he was able to capitalize on the crisis and reign them back in. Some not so much. ’cause some it saw conspiracy in, in Kurt assassination, and I’m encouraged by that.

Some people don’t like the, the libertarian and one of the people see conspiracy everywhere. It doesn’t bother me. I love it. I love the talk conspiracy because to me it will make people more anti-state because it, it says, I don’t trust what they say. You know? Yeah. Is every conspiracy true? I’m not saying that, but it, it, it shows that the populace doesn’t trust the, the line that the media and the, and the states get.

And I think that’s a good thing.

[00:27:11] Jacob Winograd: I, yeah. I think it’s good to engage in considering conspiracies and talking about like, here’s the mainstream narrative. Is that the most compelling? Is that what makes the best sense of the data? You know, what are the incentives behind pushing this narrative? I think that’s good.

There are some conspiracies I obviously believe in, ’cause I think there’s enough evidence for them. Then there’s a lot of others where I go, listen, I don’t know. Like that could be, but it could just easily be five other things. But we can find unity in saying, yeah, the mainstream narrative doesn’t quite add up.

Like that’s kind of where I am at with September 11th. I kind of go, listen, I don’t know, like there’s a lot of conspiracies out there that go all sorts of different directions and I don’t know that I really buy any of them fully, [00:28:00] but there’s certainly enough weird like the the, you know, the FBI was tipped off enough about the whole ordeal and there’s enough weird things with like building seven and just things that happened that day that make you go.

I mean, they’re definitely not telling us the whole story. I don’t know what’s missing and what that implies, but for whatever reason, you know, they’re definitely not giving us the whole story. I think the same thing about the Charlie Kirk shooting. They’re just way too much weird stuff about that. For me to go like, oh yeah, this is totally kosher.

And you know, above board, there’s just, I mean, even just like the the published text conversations, I’m just like, okay, come on. Like, this feels like you’re just insulting my intelligence that you expect that we’re just gonna read this and believe it. Right. It’s just absurd.

[00:28:46] ANCAP Tim: And that generation does not text like that.

It, it, it’s, it’s, it was so, it was like some boomers. That’s the guy that I created that,

[00:28:54] Jacob Winograd: yeah. I wanna talk about the song you wrote. This is the first song that I listened to of your, ’cause I think you sent it to me. Over Facebook. No King but Christ. Right. This is sort of, an old, I mean, I don’t think it is necessarily originally tied to Christian anarchism, but it’s certainly a mantra that we have adopted and started to, you know, use more over time.

You know, it, I think it was funny like when the whole Christ is king. Thing got a lot of circulation over the last couple years because of Candace Owens. And then there was even some people I like less than her who were trying to co-opted and do it. But I was just like, listen, let’s lean into it.

Yeah. Christ is king. Like, what, what does that mean? Like, what is the implications of dec declaring Christ is Lord? And you know, the earliest gospel message that we have, which is recorded in Mark was you know, Jesus saying, you know, you know, declaring the good news of the kingdom, right? Repair, repair the way of the Lord.

You know, it was very much, as much as the, the gospel message is about salvation and freedom from the bondage of sin and what Christ has done on the cross, [00:30:00] it’s also about his declaration as, as king, right as the messianic, Davidic king that was foretold and, and the kingdom that he was going to establish.

Which of course the, at least many of the Jews of his day missed ’cause they were expect. Un earthly kingdom to be established. And it wasn’t. But there’s so many different theories about what, you know is involved with like the, with Christ’s kingdom reign and different esco eschatological views that tie into this with post, you know, debates of for post millennialism and pre millennialism and dispensationalism and, and a millennialism.

Which, you know, there’s a whole lot there. But there’s also, you know, just beyond eschatology, there’s just, okay, like whatever happens in the future, we know Christ is reigning now. Yet that’s something that no, no matter where you land on the eschatology, dartboard, you’re not gonna deny that Christ’s kingdom has a already component and that he is currently reigning.

So what does that mean for how we relate to different kingdoms? I just made a a short the other day where I was calling out how, you know, Jesus said you can only serve. One master, you’ll, you’ll either love, love one and hate the other, or serve one and not the other. And so, like, that includes your allegiance being proclaimed to a, to a nation through a flag, right?

Like, I don’t let my kids do the Pledge of Allegiance. This is why they are not part of like Boy Scouts or anything like that. ’cause I have not found, I’ve not found one Cub Scout, boy Scout, any kind of troop thing that doesn’t do the Pledge of Allegiance and the whole like you know, sort of like flag worship stuff, which I just have a ma I’ve had a major allergy to that Christian cer

[00:31:42] ANCAP Tim: circles, like AANAs and different things like that.

They still do that.

[00:31:46] Jacob Winograd: Yeah, I know. And I just, it’s like,

[00:31:48] ANCAP Tim: no, no, thank you.

[00:31:49] Jacob Winograd: Yeah. That, that’s there, there are some things that I am, pretty amenable to and flexible on, but like, no, I’m like, I’m sorry when Christ said like. Swear, no [00:32:00] oves, and you can only serve one master. I’m just like, and then someone in the comments was like, well, I mean, you could like be loyal to America.

It’s about loyalty and you could be loyalty. You have a loyalty to America or to your nation as long as your allegiance to Christ is higher. I was like, that just cancels out because either if you’re, if your loyalty for Christ is what truly matters, then anything you do as like a good American, that it would not conflict with being a good Christian.

It, it just, you wouldn’t need the Amer like, you know, to, to be a good neighbor, to love your neighbor, to not steal, to not murder, to protect the innocent, right. To advocate for the least of these. Like if, if anything that’s good about America and the American ethos, which I’m not saying all the, the American history and mythology is bad, but any of it that’s good is ultimately just found in Christ.

So it’s like at the end of the day, even if you play that. Balance somewhat correctly. It’s not even really a balance. Your allegiance is to Christ and you’re playing make believe that you have some loyalty to America or you’re deluded and, and you actually do have divided allegiance in a harmful way.

And I think you kind of touched both ways. I think some people don’t realize that they’re really not that loyal to America, but I think there’s plenty of Christians who don’t realize that their theology is definitely distorted because they’ve mixed in a lot of loyalty to a, to a nation state. Which, yeah.

But what, what are your thoughts on that and, you know, kind of the thoughts that went into writing that song.

[00:33:33] ANCAP Tim: Yeah. Just to jump off what you just said, I think a lot of Christians and churches in, in my circle, I’m both in the, the Baptist side of things, they are definitely that God and country, I mean, it’s like, it’s right here.

And they might say they. E exalt Christ, a little bit higher than country, but on those stages, they’ve got the American flag on one side and they got their Christian flag. And as far as I can tell, they’re the same brother. [00:34:00] You know, and then, and marijuanas and, and different things they do for the kids.

The, the, the Christian religious, the Christian flag, which, I don’t have any problem with that. I still think it’s a little weird. But then, then they really weird. They do the, the American Pledge of Ance and yeah, I think it’s rampant in our churches. Most of you think of all just Sundays, it’s like 52 Sundays.

A lot of them have to do with Caesar’s calendar, whether it be Mother’s Day, father’s Day. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with Mother’s Day and Father’s Day.

You can honor your mother and father without having a national holiday say, and it’s Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, but Memorial Day, 4th of July you, you come, come down full circle. Even some of the, the Christian Christianese holiday, it’s like Thanksgiving and different ones. It’s like a lot of times our churches are placating to Caesar’s calendar.

And it, it’s, it’s, I think the church has just really been infiltrated with Caesar and it’s just, it, it’s hard to, to tell the difference between when you go to a Christian Church between Christ and this patriotism. And Christ was not American. Christ wa wa was he, he was the savior of the world.

So he, he is king of all. He, it’s not some, some nation state that we need to put on the same level or let you We’ll, we’ll lower it down just a little bit. No. It’s, it’s Christ. It’s Christ. We focus on Christ. And, and that’s, that’s why I wrote the song. I did notice that hashtag was gaining popularity on x and, and Facebook and, and whatnot.

And I saw people saying that if you use that hashtag, you were [00:36:00] anti-Semitic. And that one just really blew me. I was just like, you know, the, the whole Yeah. Di Dispensationalist were saying it. And I have some very good dispensationalist friends. I’m not one of them. I, I used to be but I have, I have since come out from that.

But yeah, now my friends weren’t saying that, but a lot of dispensationalist online were saying. But that it’s very antisemitic to say the crisis came. I’m like, do you hear what you’re saying? Like, it, it was a weird time. So I was like, me being the rebel, I was like, okay, I’m making a song with that title just to piss you off, you know?

Well, I mean, that wasn’t the whole point. My whole point was to just to try to convince people to let go of some of this Caesar influence and just focus on Christ.

​

[00:38:00]

[00:39:19] Jacob Winograd: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I think that there is something missing in American Evangelicalism, which I’m, I’m an American Evangelical, but you know, non-denominational church I attend.

It’s kind of like loosely, you know, if, if I had to label our theology, it’s Reformed Baptist ish, but I. I think some churches are starting to change. Like my church, even like recently, two years ago, we did a men’s retreat and the whole focus was talking about the kingdom of God and what, what all this means, right?

And exploring the different beliefs. But I think for the most part, we have in America, especially the evangelical church, we’ve sort of [00:40:00] made this weird equivalent or confusion with our nation state or with, you know, even worse, like a pol a political party and you know, like to be a good Christian is to, to to vote a certain way, right?

And I, yeah, I, I just, I think there’s something weird, I don’t know how you feel about this. Like, so I’m not Catholic. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, and there’s reasons why I’m not Catholic, and I guess I identify as Protestant more or less, but. There is valid criticism of Protestantism and evangelicalism insofar as they’ve sort of thrown out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to like sola script Torah, because I agreed that scripture is the only infallible authority in terms of like, I take the whole, the whole inspiration of scripture, the whole corpus as God breathe.

And I don’t think that any text in there is wrong or errant as it’s originally, you know, intended by God for us to understand and tradition and churches can obviously be wrong, but I also feel like if you believe something that didn’t exist for 1900 years in church history. Regarding the church regard regarding the Kingdom of God, regarding salvation, regarding Israel.

There’s, there’s just, I don’t know, like I I think you have higher, I sensationalism. Yeah. I, I guess this is, it’s like we’re playing Jeopardy, like what theology did not exist for 1900. Yeah. I think you have a higher burden of proof to establish your your, your truth claims. And I think that there’s something about the early [00:42:00] church especially, but even in the medieval, like the early parts of the medieval church like before the great schism, like you still see a lot of Christians that are concerned with, like maintaining a certain division between the church and the state.

Like even, even Augustine in like the city of God. And so like this is kind of post, when Christianity, I think is no longer like in the early persecution years, but he’s still very much like, we need to, you know, make sure that there’s a separation between church and empire and church and and I just feel like there’s so many Christians that just like, they’re just like making up their own version of Christianity that’s completely

d like the early church fathers would come and look at some churches today with these American flags on display and just be like, you know, like, like, like almost passing out from just how absurd it is.

So,

[00:42:55] ANCAP Tim: yeah, I, I think Craig with the Bad Roman is, has always said it great. You know, sometimes being a good Christian means being a bad Roman. Yes. I just don’t think, like, alright, go back to the, like the Charlie Kirk Memorial. I don’t, I don’t know why, why I brought this up and I’m just thinking about this.

And in our churches it was just, oh man, it was so great. So. It was weird for me, and I only saw clips. I didn’t watch the whole thing. But my thing is, anything that Caesar talking about, Trump, Caesar, he’s the head of state. Anything that Caesar shows up and speaks at, I doubt it’s gonna be very, very sound when it comes to Christian thinking that, that, that’s just just me.

You know? Yeah. And, and I think the early church would definitely had the same mentality. Like if Caesar would’ve showed up to speak at one of their meetings that I, I, I think they would’ve been very skeptical. What is going on here? What is your motive? Because they, they recognize statism, they recognize the empire, and they said, Hey, [00:44:00] my, my, my citizenship is not of this world.

My citizenship is, is spiritual and it’s, it’s of heaven. I think we need to get back to that.

[00:44:09] Jacob Winograd: I a hundred percent agree. I haven’t talked to Craig in a hot minute. Him and I have often butted heads online, but we actually do secretly like each other. And yeah, I’ve always been a little bit jealous of, you know, I, I do love his, his name and the slogan, right?

Like, I think that’s such a good way of describing the idea we’re getting at here, that, yeah, like sometimes to be a good Christian means being a bad Roman. Like that saying like, I homeschool my kids. And it’s like, c Christians who put their kids in public schools and then like, wonder why they grow up, like hating the church, hating faith, adopting all these, you know, secular progressive ideas.

It’s like, well, you give your children to Caesar. Why are you surprised when they come out Roman? I mean, it’s, it’s just crazy to me. And, yeah, I, I think, well, you know, one of the things since you brought up Craig, it’s a good segue to something I wanted to talk about from one of your songs where you said, good, the song, good ideas, which you know, I generally agree with the sentiment here.

You know, good ideas don’t require force. We don’t need guns, no need for wars. And I understand the sentiment behind this, which is that like, if, if something’s a good idea, you shouldn’t need to compel people by force to adopt the good idea. You should be able to like, use persuasion conversation, competition in the free market you know, et cetera.

I think the spread of the gospel should not be done with force, obviously. But you know, one of the things I disagree with Craig on is that he’s more of a pacifist and, and, and, and I’m not, and, and for one of those reasons is that although I agree with the heart behind that message that good ideas don’t require force.

I think that like self-defense and the upholding of property rights, which is kind of like the most, you know, the end cap idea is that like the only reason to use force, right? To have any kind of, you know, civil governance, which I would say is, you know, [00:46:00] should be done through market means ideally sure through private, you know, private actors, not monopoly state actors, but it’s still people using force at the end of the day to respond to aggression, right?

They’re not initiating force, they’re using force to respond to aggression. But I think that is

[00:46:16] ANCAP Tim: a very important point ’cause they’re responding to aggression,

[00:46:20] Jacob Winograd: right?

[00:46:20] ANCAP Tim: So it’s never a good idea, never a good idea. And, and, and I think Jesus teaches this to, to force people and to like I say, I’ve come up a gr with a great idea for a business, you know, or, or say a, a government service if the only way I can enact it is by forcing it on people.

It’s not a good idea now. Yeah. If someone comes and threatens my family, well, I can respond to that. And I’m, so the, the, I don’t, the song is not saying that you can’t respond to force but I still don’t think it’s a good idea. It’s not a good idea to have to defend yourself. You’re, you’re, that’s just a consequence.

You’re having to, you know, you’re having to react to, to a bad idea of someone coming true and maybe attacking a family. So I, I’m saying strictly ideas that you come up with in your head, they’re not good ideas if they require force.

[00:47:20] Jacob Winograd: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that’s a, that’s a good distinction. And it, the reactionary

[00:47:24] ANCAP Tim: Yeah.

That, that is different.

[00:47:26] Jacob Winograd: And even self-defense. So I’m of the mindset that even though I’m not a pacifist, I do appreciate the pacifist tradition because I think it’s a useful critique that. Challenge the heart of believers, even if we’re not pacifists, because I, I once did a, the, like a friendly debate with, with Craig and also with our mutual friend Abby, who was, was part of the Bad Roman back in the early days.

And it was all like pacifism and like what we should do as Christians. And like I agreed with [00:48:00] them that like self-defense is not optimal. Like that’s kind of like that, like everything has failed and we live in a fallen world and there’s no, like when aggression is come to you or your family or your loved ones or your neighbors, there is no good response at that point.

Like, you kind of only have bad options on the table that have been kind of given to you. And I think that we as Christians should be careful to not adopt the sort of conservative and sometimes libertarian, like, like even though I’m a, a libertarian or ancap. There are times where I, as a Christian, I’m going to sort of disagree with the ethos that exists sometimes in libertarian endcap circles.

One of those being the mantra or like, like the expression where they’ll be like, I wish a mofo would like, you know, there’ll be like, you know, talking tough online and being like, you know, oh, you, you like, people will like say like lame threats. They be like, oh, you come here and back that up, like, I wish you would.

And I’m just like, not, that’s not right. Like just because I would use force to defend my family doesn’t mean that like I want to. Right. Like I kind of wish, even though I’m not philosophically a pacifist, I agree with the way Bob Murphy puts it where I’m like, Prax theologically, I kind of want, you know, I think we should all operate almost as sort of functional pacifists in terms of like, we should be exhausting.

All possible options to avoid conflict and violence in society. Yeah. Not be sort of a yeah, like, like, like a glorifying violence, even defensive violence. Like it’s still violence. It’s still a result of sin. You know, it’s not, you know, we should never be celebrating the, the, the death of someone.

I think so, but yeah. No, I mean, I, I, like I said, I agree with the idea behind the song. I just think it’s a, it’s a useful nuance to [00:50:00] kind of suss out there, because I, like, I’m not a pacifist, but I also understand that like there’s a need to also push back against parts of like Yeah. There’s another part where, again, like it’s even a part of American culture sometimes to glorify violence.

Yeah. Which I think we as Christians need to be skeptical of.

[00:50:16] ANCAP Tim: Right? Yeah. And, and, and so the, the song is done in kind of like a grateful dead type feel, you know, very, a lot of my music, kind of old school. And so it, it had this kind of, it’s got this kind of peace, love, feel to it, kind of hippie because there’s not many people out there that are pacifists and that are consistently pacifists.

Most people aren’t. And so to me, I see the problem in our society with people being too far the other way, where they, they just glorify death. They Roman romanticize war. They, they, they, you know, make comments about the Middle East. Just make the sand glow and different things like that. And to me, my point of good ideas is, Hey dude, we need to roll this back.

I’m not saying we need to go all the way to, to strict pacifism, but dude, we, we at least need to value human life and value in realizing the difference between force. Voluntary exchange. That that’s, that’s the main point,

[00:51:19] Jacob Winograd: yeah.

[00:51:20] ANCAP Tim: Of, of really the album is that voluntary exchange is superior to force.

[00:51:26] Jacob Winograd: Oh, 100%.

I, I wish we had more time ’cause there there’s more things I wanted to talk about. I, I will make a brief shout out to your one song, the, the Ballad of LA Sander Spooner, which is just an amazing song, an amazing person, everyone should read. The writings of La Sander Spooner one of the og American you know, if you like, if you’re like a, you know, rah rah American guy, I mean, LA Sander Spooner is like, even before Roth Bar, you could say he’s like a founder of like American libertarianism and anarchism.

A hundred percent. Yeah. So he’s and, and someone who’s good at like, critiquing things like the [00:52:00] Constitution and, and American ethos from a kind of first principled kind of way. But I did wanna talk about, kind of, you know, piggybacking off the pacifist conversation another song which gave me like a similar reaction to the good ideas thing, where I was like, I agree with the sentiment.

And then I also, I internally wrestle with some of the nuance with this was the Letters to Santa song. Now, by the way, that is like, if I was gonna say, I think all the songs are great. I think this song is like the best written in terms of just, I like, like, like you go in, you’re like, letters to Santa, like, what is this?

Yeah. And then like, the payoff with like how the verse builds into the chorus and like what you’re leading into. I just thought that was brilliantly written. Just as someone who’s also a musician, I just like, oh man, I love this. Like, this is awesome. Well, thank

[00:52:47] ANCAP Tim: you because that, that, that’s, that’s my favorite, my personal favorite.

So to hear somebody finally say that, that means a lot to me. Awesome.

[00:52:54] Jacob Winograd: Yeah. I, I’m glad I could argue. Yeah. You know, because like, I feel like people are gonna clinging to like the maybe more obvious ones, like no King of Christ or anything, which again, they’re all good and I love that. But like, just as like a, a fellow musician, like, I was like, you know, Ooh, yeah, this one’s really like, really good.

The part that like I agree with, but I wrestle with is this idea of sort of like, what if we act like they’re already gone? This idea of like, if we just sort of like, if everyone just stopped accepting legitimacy of the state, that we could go on and leave peaceful lives and like the state wouldn’t be able to do anything.

And it’s like, I, I guess I agree with that in a sense, right? Because the state does sort of operate based on, this is kinda like basic, like what Roth Bar talks about in like anatomy of the state, right? That like, you know, we’re, you know, we’re, we’re indoctrinated to, to, to think that we need the state for these different parts of society to work.

That like we are part of the government, that we are the government, that it’s a legitimate part of society. And, we’re all kind of indoctrinated through culture, through education, for all to believe that. And if [00:54:00] you stripped all that away you know, and, and as you kind of say the, the opening song and the album name, if you realize that there really is no difference between the state and the mafia, then you’d be like, well, it doesn’t really make sense.

Like, we wouldn’t, you know, voluntarily submit to the mafia. Why are we voluntarily submitting to the state? We’re not gonna do that. I guess this gets down to like the, what, what do we do as like libertarian anarchists while we still live in a state. And I sometimes feel like there’s a. A bit of a danger with Christian anarchism and also with some strains of Christianity where I worry they get a little bit too detached, a little bit too retreated.

There’s this expression that like, you might not care about politics, but politics cares about you. And I think about like, passages in the Bible, like, like, think about the Old Testament prophets, like, and Isaiah in Amos, in Micah. I, I know I’m forgetting couple here, but there, there’s so many passages in, in the Bible in that part of the the, the Tanach, the Old Testament prophets who are calling out Israel’s rulers for failing to rule justly, for failing to be merciful.

This is where like Jesus, when he’s rebuking, the Pharisees is almost. Quoting from Micah, word for word, where he is, like you sat, you, you, you tithe cumin and spices and dill. But neglect the weightier matters of the law. Mercy and justice and faithfulness. And as much as I kind of want people to opt out of the system, I sometimes feel this like obligation to like, no, we need to like, get into the muck more and like, expose it and fight it.

Now there’s a bad way to fight it. Some people, myself included, have flirted with political activism and found that, it sounds good in theory. And then it it, you know, I, I spent many years in the [00:56:00] Libertarian party and in the Mees Caucus and still love a lot of the people there, but I’ve kind of been disillusioned by that route.

But then I, there’s just something maybe, and this could just be my own like. Flesh and, and struggle that I have to deal with. But there’s this, like, I guess I have a dissatisfaction where I feel like I’m stuck between just podcasting and writing and persuading. I don’t wanna undermine that. That’s all important, but I wish that, sometimes I just feel like there were more, I wish there was more ways to combat the state head on.

And I sometimes worry that we as anarchists can, like, because we know that we should opt out, but then like, if we’re opting out to the point where we’re not engaging and fighting back that, because we’re not like we’re, we’re so far from being the majority that might make society worse rather than better.

So I don’t know that there’s a lot there. I feel like I’m rambling a little bit, but maybe you can understand a little bit what I’m saying and kind of let me know what your thoughts are. ’cause I’d be curious. Yeah,

[00:57:00] ANCAP Tim: I, I, I agree with a lot of what you said. I will say that I think trying the, the best way to fight the state.

Is a more of an evangelical approach, waking other people up to the state. I I, I don’t think, even though I love Ron Paul and Ron Paul did a lot for the movement, but I think people telling their neighbors about voluntary exchange and engaging in black markets, gray markets, I think that does more for liberty than Ron Paul standing on in the, in the middle of Congress telling him that they’re all a bunch of psychopaths.

That’s just what I personally believe. I I, I don’t see any real, real world advances of like Thomas Massey, I love Thomas Massey, Rand Paul, even Ron Paul. Other than waking people [00:58:00] up and pulling them out of the system, I don’t see anything they have done politically to. Way. I, I, I just, I don’t think politics is the answer,

[00:58:09] Jacob Winograd: so I guess I agree, but I feel like, and maybe it’s just a small niche of people who do this, but I think there was something brave and heroic and needed about, like Rand Paul and Thomas Massey being like the lone voices of reason in Congress during the COVID mania, like questioning fauci and all that.

Like Yeah, I

[00:58:29] ANCAP Tim: don’t wanna undermine them.

[00:58:30] Jacob Winograd: Yeah.

[00:58:31] ANCAP Tim: At all. Because, but it, it definitely took, took balls and, and, and they were brave to do what they did. And so, but maybe, I

[00:58:38] Jacob Winograd: guess, but maybe there are the exception and not the rule, right? Like there might be a certain few of us who were called to that kind of thing.

[00:58:44] ANCAP Tim: Well, lemme put it this way. They the best they accomplished that, that they didn’t make any political change, but they woke a lot of people up. And so, yes, I’m not saying that having a voice, a very powerful voice and using that voice is a bad thing. I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying. We should focus our efforts more evangelical way lot like, like R Ron Paul did.

It wasn’t the bills that he tried to introduce to end the Fed. They did nothing but his speeches and his talking, his books, they have done more to wake up society than any kind of political thing that he ever tried to do. That, that’s, that’s my point. I’m not saying that they’re not, it, it’s, I’m glad we have Thomas Massey.

I’m glad we have we had a Ron Paul, Randy, you know, whatever.

[00:59:33] Jacob Winograd: But it’s been up and down. Yeah.

[00:59:35] ANCAP Tim: But, but I even rand I, I’m, I’m glad because they are a, a, a voice for the message of liberty and that I think is the only thing that they’re really doing. And so I’m not saying stop at all. I’m just saying if you look at what they’ve done politically, they’ve really not accomplished anything.

But they’ve accomplished massive amounts of, [01:00:00] of, of things from a. Evangelical aspect of waking people up to the, to the horrors of the state and the evils of the state.

[01:00:09] Jacob Winograd: Yeah, no, I agree. I think, I guess sometimes, so put it this way, Elijah was not afraid to confront you know, the corrupt rulers, but yeah, he certainly he confronted them.

He sure he didn’t, I guess he, he didn’t try to change the corrupt kingship from inside necessarily. And, and

[01:00:28] ANCAP Tim: I’m not saying don’t stand, don’t stand out there and call the state what it is. Yeah. But I think our real future is, is in us pulling back and, and getting unplugging from the state, homeschooling our kids engaging in black and gray markets forming voluntary communities that.

That don’t have very little or if no state influence that I think is our future. I, I and, and I could be wrong on that. That’s perfectly fine. I just, I just think that is the libertarian anarchist path forward that won’t end in bloodshed because if enough people check into this idea and then those people pull out and say, I’m not gonna send in my taxes anymore.

I mean, if you had an, if you had like 10% say we we’re not gonna send our income taxes in the IRS couldn’t do anything about it, there’s no way they could lock up 10% of the population to find ’em enough to where it would, would they would be able to do anything. So that’s kind of goes back to letters to Santa it.

I think our mission is waking up more and more people to the truth that the state is evil and the way we fight that personally way, I believe is not with guns. It’s not with bombs. Yeah. Because I, I think we’re gonna lose that fight. Maybe gorilla style but, but definitely not head on. We have to starve them and we have to starve them of our [01:02:00] allegiance because they thrive off that allegiance.

And if, if we can get people to pull back from that, I think it’s a huge victory.

[01:02:07] Jacob Winograd: Yeah. No, there’s a lot. I, I mean, it’s, it’s Isaiah’s job, right? Gather, gather the remnant. And I think yeah, I, I think that that’s, I do think that’s the primary means that we have to engage in. So, but, but it is a, there sometimes there’s that temptation for the ring, you know what I mean?

Yeah. We all gotta be wary of that. Sometimes, we don’t think we’re Boer. But, but sometimes we are. But hopefully we can resist that temptation when the time comes. You, you brought a black market I’ll to close us out, I’m gonna read just some of the lyrics from your song on the black market, which I thought gets to a lot of what you’re saying.

It is beautifully written. No chains are traded here. No lives are ever sold. No pain exchanged for profit. No whores, no blindfolds. It’s food and meds and barter, no victims or crime, just neighbors helping neighbors one deal at a time. Black markets are better. It’s freedom on demand. No gatekeepers needed, no rulers and command volunteerism thrives where the underground flows.

The state can’t stop it, where the black market grows. So, yeah, I agree. More we opt out. The more we just you know, we don’t have, I I, I had a conversation with my co associate Carrie Baldwin about this. On a recent episode of my personal podcast, the Biblical Anarchy podcast, when we were talking about the plausibility of a stateless society, you know, and sometimes we, I think we have to remind ourselves that although we can dream and hope for a day without a state, we can also acknowledge that yeah.

Like we can, we can be informed, we can speak out against injustice, but we don’t have to wait to abolish the state to live free now. And finding more ways to do that, even in an unfree world, that’s, that’s just as evangelical as being a good, good witness for Christ, right? Like nothing I like that expression.

Preach the gospel. Use words if you have to. I think the same should probably apply to our libertarian anarchist convictions as well. [01:04:00] So, we’re short on time, Tim, but I want to give you the last word to kind of give any closing thoughts you have and then al also be sure to plug where people can find either your social medias or your, your website where people can check out your music and support you if they want to.

[01:04:17] ANCAP Tim: Yeah. Hey, and thanks for having me. Had a great time. Ancap tim.com is where you can go to find all the links to the streaming. I’m on the album, the debut album is on Spotify. It’s on apple Music, Amazon music, all, all of the major streaming platforms. And if you want physical media, which a lot of people in our, our circles like to own something.

You can get CDs and they’re like the old school. Nineties CDs where you got the little jacket you pull out and it has all the lyrics, you can kind of follow along. And I have records. So if you’re even a more like an old soul like me you, you’ve got the final records you can buy as well. The album is definitely more like, I’m not saying old timing music, but it, it’s, it’s definitely not modern pop.

It’s, it’s kind of a mix of a lot of different classic rock you know, up, up until probably, you know, a little bit of alternative rock of the nineties. So I, I’m an I’m about to be 40, so it’s type, type of music that I grew up listening to. But I wanted to do it because it felt like there wasn’t much out there in the world of, of anti-state music that was like that.

It usually was either real heavy metal. Or rap, stuff like that. Yeah. And I can’t pull that stuff off. So that was my hope. And I, hopefully some people out there will identify with that as well. More middle of the road type music with a anti-state message and but yeah, endcap tim.com. Even if you don’t like the music, pull it up on Spotify, hit play and then set it in the other room.

You don’t have to listen to it, but it’ll play, you know, it’ll, it’ll help me out.

[01:05:58] Jacob Winograd: Awesome. Yeah, I, I’ve [01:06:00] definitely enjoyed it. It’s been on my my, my Spotify playlist a lot and I definitely plan on getting a physical copy. I got a, I have one of those weird modern contraptions in my car that doesn’t have a CD rom, so I need to need to change that because yeah, I’m kind of.

As I’m getting older in this digital age, I’m like, you know, I kind of want to have more physical hard copy stuff, like my mu I like my music like, like my money, right? I want it to be hard and physical. Not a, I guess other than Bitcoin. But yeah, Bitcoin’s still it’s not fiat currency. So I’m mixing my metaphors here.

Forgive me, but and cap, Tim’s been a pleasure. It was great to have you on and get to know you a little bit more and I’m sure we will do some future conversations and collaborations as well. Thank you everybody for tuning in and listening and go to ancap tim.com. If you wanna support Tim, you can of course go to libertarian christians.com slash donate to support the show.

And if you wanna follow me on Twitter, again, that’s at Biblical anarchy. Make sure you’re subscribed, make sure you like this stream wherever you are at before you hop off. That helps us out a lot. And even five star reviews on apple and Spotify, wherever you’re at, is greatly appreciated as well. I have for you guys though for today.

Be back again next Monday with another stream. Until then, as I always conclude by saying, live at peace, live for Christ. Take care.

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