Ep 422: Is MAHA Libertarian? with Elizabeth Nolan Brown

LCP Episode 422 – Elizabeth Nolan Brown.mp3

[00:00:03] Voiceover: Welcome to the show that gets Christians thinking about faith and politics. Get ready to challenge the status quo. Expand your imagination and tackle controversy head on. Let’s stand together at the intersection of faith and freedom. It’s time for the Libertarian Christian podcast.

[00:00:22] Doug Stuart: Welcome to another episode of the Libertarian Christian Podcast, a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute and part of the Christians for Liberty Network. I’m your host, Doug Stuart and I have a very special guest, somebody that I have wanted to, uh, talk about, talk to about a particular topic that’s been near and dear to my heart for about a year. Her name is Elizabeth Nolan Brown, and she is senior editor at reason and author of reasons, biweekly sex and tech newsletter, which covers issues surrounding sex, technology, bodily autonomy, law and online culture. She’s also co-founder of the libertarian feminist group Feminists for Liberty and is adjunct professor at the University of Cincinnati. Uh, her recent cover story, which you can see on YouTube. If you’re if I’m holding this up is reasons July 2025 print magazine on the Maha movement and RFK Jr and the historical precedence over the past few decades with the the basically the American health movement. Um, so today we’re going to talk about Maha, and she’s going to help us answer the question, what happens when health movements clash with libertarian principles? Hey, Liz, thank you for joining me.

[00:01:21] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Hi. Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:23] Doug Stuart: Uh, this has been I’ve been looking forward to this for for a couple of weeks here. Now that we’ve, uh, you know, settled a date and we’re able to to kind of have this conversation. And I read your article, I listened to your conversation with Nick Gillespie on his show, and I think you and I have treaded similar ground as it, as it goes to sort of the health movement and stuff. I actually didn’t know there was such a thing as the Maha movement until I was at Rescue the Republic in, I think it was September of 24. Um, and that wasn’t really a maha thing until I got there and realized that, like, they were a big sponsor. Um, that was, uh, Bret Weinstein’s sort of brainchild to get people together in D.C.. I don’t know if you remember that or not, but I remember thinking, wow, there’s a lot of RFK people here. Okay, well, that makes sense because now he’s with the with the Trump campaign and so forth. Uh, but I didn’t realize there was a movement. I knew there were. I mean, obviously, we always know there’s the Jillian Michaels out there. There’s, um, you know, big names in, you know, Peter Attia, people helping you think through your body. Think about what you’re eating. Think about how to take care of yourself. But I didn’t know it was this movement that wanted some sort of political grasp. So, um. Anyway, I didn’t even know that that existed up until later last year, and it sort of had, I don’t know, I felt like it had I had a connection to it. Um, and so anyway, that that just sort of me on this whole idea of like, well, how do I, how do I understand what this movement is? How do I understand? Like there’s just so much health information out there. Um, my guess is that you knew about Omaha Movement before I did. So I don’t know if you want to share a little bit of your story and how you came across it and became interested in it.

[00:02:57] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Um, I mean, I actually may have been around the same time as you that I started realizing that there was people calling it the Maha movement. Um, probably like a while back. It’s been I’ve been paying attention to, like, why are all of the right-wingers suddenly sounding like, you know, left-wing hippies from the 70s or like my friends in Brooklyn from like 2009, like what is going on? Um, and then so when I started trying to, like, explicitly be like, what is, you know, trying to answer the question of what is happening for that, I noticed, you know, I started noticing that a lot of the stuff was falling under the hashtag or the rubric of Maha Make America Healthy Again. But, I mean, I think it really did just sort of start to coalesce, like not too long ago, like once, you know, once RFK was sort of on, on board with Team Trump and he sort of used that. That’s when a lot of these trends that were sort of like already percolating in different ways, like actually started giving themselves the label. Maha.

[00:03:51] Doug Stuart: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Was um, did you have any, like, personal interest in making yourself healthy again like prior to Maha or is were you influenced by the political movement?

[00:04:02] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. No, no, no, I mean like so I was, um, I was a health and nutrition writer for, like, women’s health blogs, like back in the, like late aughts and early 20 tens and like.

[00:04:12] Doug Stuart: Okay.

[00:04:12] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Got a certificate in nutrition and, um, was briefly, like, writing a book about eating for brain health, like, it’s, um. Yeah, I kind of go way back on this, and I’m sort of a nutrition nerd. I still like, you know.

[00:04:24] Doug Stuart: Okay.

[00:04:24] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Like to read nutrition studies, and I’m very particular about kind of what, what food is in my house and things like that. So I definitely yeah, this was like already an interest of mine, which is, which is I think why I started to notice like this different sort of, um, political center to, to the people that were talking about this stuff.

[00:04:43] Doug Stuart: What what got you interested in that in, in earlier life like. Yeah. What prompted that for you to be interested in those in nutrition and body health.

[00:04:53] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Um, you know, so I was grew up eating a pretty standard diet, um, you know, like.

[00:05:00] Doug Stuart: Conveniently labeled sad. Sad.

[00:05:02] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: The standard American diet. Yes. Um, you know, and, uh, I mean, I was, I was, I was always been pretty thin, just naturally, but, like, you know, I wasn’t, like, fit and I wasn’t. I got headaches and I, you know, I had issues with, um, with my mood and, and just, just various things that I never really thought of as being related to diet because, you know, you grow up thinking like, these are just these are all separate silos, you know, like you eat, right, so that you don’t get fat or so that your teeth don’t rot. And that was kind of the only things I thought that food affected, you know. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, there was this was sort of in my, in my 20s in my, I guess, you know, mid 20s. I was, I was working for the AARP, actually, and I read this book, um, called I forget what the book was called, but I read a book that was about the food mood connection, maybe that was starting to talk about how diet could affect your mental health. And it was really like kind of a revelation for me that that was even possible. Um, and then I was I started dating someone who who lived in Brooklyn and was very into like the food movement scene there, which people kind of called it at the time, you know, like Michael Pollan and like slow food, slow cooking.

[00:06:08] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Um, so I just started gradually getting more and more interested in trying to sort of change the way I ate. Like I went on a raw food diet for like two months or something just to try and reset my body, which, you know, like, I don’t actually believe the raw food diet is is good, but it was good in that it did help me reset my like, you know, cravings for things and sort of start. So I just sort of totally overhauled the way I ate. And I lost like 20 pounds. And I mean, I was like I said, I was never heavy, but I was I don’t know, maybe just I had an extra 20 pounds because I lost it and I’ve never gained it back. I, um, you know, I felt I haven’t had headaches since then. I just felt like a lot of things start improving that I hadn’t realized were what may be tied to my diet. And, you know, this was almost 20 years ago now. So, um, it’s been, you know. Yeah. That was the origin.

[00:06:57] Doug Stuart: Yeah. Okay. Do you look back on it now and think, how did we not make that connection, that what we put into our body is, is going to, in some ways chemically alter how we, how we behave and how we react to things?

[00:07:08] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Totally. I mean, it seems it seems nuts to me, but also, I still think there’s so many people who don’t make that connection, right? I mean, I still think that, like, a lot of people around me still kind of think that that’s a crazy idea. Um, I’d say more people than not, like, don’t really realize that. And, um, you know, like, I also think it was, you know, I’m talking about, you know, in the 90s especially, you know, like when I was, you know, in, um, when I was a child and then I was in high school, I graduated high school in 2000. So, like, that was the whole era of like, you know, just just eat low fat, just eat like, SnackWell’s cookies and whatever, and you’ll be healthy. And so it was just, you know, there was this totally different vibe when it came to nutrition and this idea that like, yeah, if you just sort of eat these very processed, but like, not containing the magic bad ingredients things, then. Yeah, you would be okay.

[00:07:59] Doug Stuart: Yeah. That reminds me of that Seinfeld bit where he’s kind of like he’s talking about everybody’s obsessed with fat. That fat. It’s going to be in me. And that was kind of how we thought of it. Like, if I eat this, it will become part of me, which I guess in some sense is true. But, um, yeah, that’s, uh. Ah, yeah. If only we knew. Right? Um, yeah, I had a next question. I kind of kind of lost my my my train there. Do you. So in your in your personal journey, you found, you became you became healthier, uh, through personal choice, um, and, and specific dieting and things like that. Do you, do you did you try any fad diets like, like try the ones that like I think back around the time you were describing, uh, I guess it was Atkins was kind of the, the pre keto because they seemed so similar to me when I think about it. But did you try any fad diets?

[00:08:47] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Uh, I mean, I did, I tried the raw food diet, as I said, so that was okay.

[00:08:50] Doug Stuart: So that was.

[00:08:51] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: The fad diet at the time. Like there was a raw food. There are a couple.

[00:08:54] Doug Stuart: I could never do that.

[00:08:55] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. I mean, yeah. So that was definitely that. Um, I think then, you know, luckily I was sort of very influenced by, like I said, my boyfriend at the time and like by just the general vibe, again, like, this is the era of Michael Pollan and Alice Waters really, you know, breaking into the mainstream. So the whole vibe was like, don’t diet just, you know, eat whole foods, eat healthy. So I think I was very much, luckily sort of, uh, saved from, from that. And um, I now I eat like low carb, but not in any sort of strict way, you know, like, I don’t follow like the, you know, you need to only have this many grams of carbs. I don’t I don’t count carbs. You know, it’s still very much just in a way that is, you know, feels that is intuitive and natural, more so than, you know, counting any sort of macros or anything like that.

[00:09:41] Doug Stuart: Do you tend to avoid any particular foods that are just like, just absolutely never.

[00:09:46] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Oh, I mean, yeah. I mean, I never would have, like, regular soda or I never have juice, I never have. I don’t know. I mean, all the, I don’t yeah. Most of the sort of typical junk foods. Obvious things. Yes. Are almost, almost never. But I also try to not. I mean, like, I have two small children and, um, you know, I try I don’t want them to grow up feeling like, because I, like, I knew this girl growing up, right. And she, like her mom, like, wouldn’t let her have anything. Right. And she’d come over to my house. And of course, we had, like, Gushers and, you know, um, Pop-Tarts and all that stuff, but she just, like, eats so much of it. Whereas at least, like, you know, my mom let us have it. But we also had limits on it, and we were kind of at least had a healthy relationship to junk food, if that makes any sense. As much as you can. And I felt like she really didn’t because she was never allowed to have it. So, you know, I’m trying now with my kids to walk this fine line where it’s like, I don’t want them to get used to this stuff, but I also don’t want them to have it be so deprived from it that like when they are required to make their own food choices that they, like go crazy, you know?

[00:10:43] Doug Stuart: Yeah, yeah. No, I get that. There’s a story. When I was growing up, there was a friend of my brother’s whose whose parents were. I guess the term now is crunchy. Back then, we called them granola families. And her her son turned one. And that was literally his first encounter with sugar was a cupcake for his birthday. And he again, one years old, and you can imagine the, I don’t know, the ecstasy on on this kid’s face when he had the cupcake.

[00:11:11] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: For my son’s first birthday. Like a cake that was like almond flour and, like, sweetened by berries. So not even one. I was like, no, we’re not doing all this sugar.

[00:11:21] Doug Stuart: Oh, wow. Okay, well that’s good, I wish I were ahead. I mean, your kids are much younger than mine. Mine are in their teens. Uh, and, uh, they I can explain how they treat me when I look at labels here in a minute, but, um. Yeah. No, actually, the mother actually kind of realized, oh, okay, maybe maybe we should do do kind of what you’re describing. It’s like, you know, have a healthy relationship with junk food in the sense of like, you know, um, I often tell my wife, she, she, she has always been a, um, sort of looks askance at processed foods and things that we tend to now look at as like, okay, we’re just not going to eat those. And I’ve always been like, yeah, whatever. You know, you know, look at, you know, we have to feed all these people. You know, capitalism has done great. Commercialization of food is not a bad thing. I’ve since changed my views on that. Um, but, um, uh, yeah. So I would look at those things and think, okay, I will just, I will just have them in moderation or and so forth. And now I don’t even crave them. I mean, it’s just it’s just at that point, um, but my kids, they’re just, you know, they’re still adjusting to this. And so they just every time I flip over a label, they’re just like, dad, what are you doing? So I’m like, I’m looking for seed oils. What do you.

[00:12:30] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Think I’m doing? Yeah, I’m a big label person, too, because you can’t really I don’t know. And it’s oh my gosh, just it’s just funny to the things that are on labels, right? Like, my mom came home the other day and she was like, looking for applesauce. That doesn’t have added sugars, right? Like unsweetened.

[00:12:46] Doug Stuart: Oh, yeah.

[00:12:46] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I couldn’t find it, but I found this one that says no, um, fat free. And I was like, of course it’s fat free. It’s applesauce. Like, but it’s that’s.

[00:12:55] Doug Stuart: Like that’s like the potatoes that says made from vegetables.

[00:12:57] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Right.

[00:12:58] Doug Stuart: Like or vegetable.

[00:12:59] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Based. But you know, like they try so hard to trick people with these labels that like are nonsensical but like, sound healthy if you’re not really quite sure what you’re looking for. So yeah, I understand why people are, you know, have such a hard time.

[00:13:12] Doug Stuart: Were you were you influenced at all by Michael Pollan or if not, um, who influenced you during all those years and even up till now?

[00:13:20] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I mean, I think mostly just people around me. It was more like, you know, like I said, like I was I ended up moving from D.C. to Brooklyn around in like 2009, and I was just very much like, immersed in, in this food scene there. Um, so it was more just like, not from not so much from reading at the time as, uh.

[00:13:40] Doug Stuart: As from your experience with others that were in it. Oh, I see. Okay. That makes sense. Did did it affect your budget at all?

[00:13:48] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Uh, again, no, because, you know, it’s really easy to get really fresh produce and things like that. Um, well, I mean, at the time, like, you know, it was really easy in Brooklyn. Now I think it’s pretty easy, like, all over the place. It’s amazing how many places. Yeah, it definitely affects my budget now though, because I’m trying to I do shortcuts, right? Like I’m trying to eat healthy, but also like I said, like, you know, I’m working full time. I’ve got a two year old and a four year old, like trying to cook all the time for them. Like, you know, like we buy like often I buy those like, and I know there’s people some people are gonna say this is horrible, but like, you know, those bags of broccoli that are like, it’s fresh broccoli, but you can just stick it in the microwave and it steams itself, you know, instead of the fresh broccoli, like, I’ll buy stuff like that. That is more expensive because it’s convenient and helps me cook a meal in, like, you know, ten minutes as opposed to a half hour or something. And so without having to chop everything up myself, like, I think that’s the that’s the problem. You can be healthy for cheap or you can be healthy in a really quick way, but doing all three of those is kind of.

[00:14:48] Doug Stuart: Yeah, it can be. It can be kind of tough. I had somebody ask ask me. It was probably about uh, I think this was probably pre-COVID. And she was kind of like we were talking about, um, finding ways to, you know, sort of change our diet for our families. And she asked, she’s like, well, what sort of motivating you or whatever? Like what made that possible? And I said, honestly, we could start to afford it. Um, I could because we have two very close grocery stores that are like those discount stores, and it’s all prepackaged food. I mean, that’s the thing that has long shelf life. And there’s a there’s a there’s a purpose for that. I don’t want to I don’t want to demonize all processed foods for, for for some for some people. But the, um, I said we could start to afford to shop elsewhere and find the fresher versions of the things that we were already sort of like cooking on a regular basis. And and that I think makes a a big makes a big impact. Um, I was going to ask you this later, but how much of this issue do you think is somewhat elitist in the sense of like, oh, well, it’s easy for you and me to sit here and say, we’ll go ahead and buy, you know, an $8 bag of chips because, you know, it doesn’t have seed oils in it because it’s just more expensive, because we can afford it or whatever. Uh, not everybody can do that. And, um, you know, there’s a there’s there’s a limit to how much grass-fed beef tallow everybody can cook in because the prices and all that. But I don’t know, what do you think?

[00:16:04] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I definitely think that like, yes, on some level or in some ways that, you know, healthy eating. Maha, whatever is, is talked about, it is elitist because like you said, there are the people that are like, you know, you have to do that are very sort of purist about it. You have to do all of these things if you are going to be healthy, and if you don’t, you’re terrible and you know you’re poisoning your children and stuff. But I think that, you know, there’s definitely ways you can talk about it where it’s where it’s not. I mean, just the basic because, you know, the basic principles of trying to eat more fruits and vegetables and trying to eat, you know, um, you know, whole foods and, you know, trying to eat, trying to eat, you know, not as many processed carbs and all of that stuff, like, all of these things could go a long way for people without having to really worry, like, you know, like cut out, cut out the soda. And like, all of this process, you know, processed cereal and stuff. And then like, if your meat is grass-fed or not, like, again, it’s, you know, for optimal health, like the most perfect health, like, yeah, that might make a difference. But also in terms of just like compared to the way so many people eat, I think there’s so many steps we can take that, that aren’t elitist, you know, that don’t require a ton of money.

[00:17:11] Doug Stuart: Yeah, right. It’s okay to get the the luxury Toyota and not the Lexus, right?

[00:17:16] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Right.

[00:17:18] Doug Stuart: Like, you can still get a nice car. That does what? You know what you need? You just don’t need everything. No, I can definitely appreciate that. We’ve we’ve kind of talked a little bit about the Maha movement. You’ve written this article it here. And just like our take on it, our experiences with it. Um, you wrote an article about it a little bit. How what’s your best succinct way of describing what is the Maha movement?

[00:17:38] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Well.

[00:17:39] Doug Stuart: Easy question. Right?

[00:17:40] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. No, because I don’t think there is. Right. Because I don’t think the Maha movement knows what it is. I mean, I guess sort of, you know, at its at its base, it’s sort of, um, a do it yourself health esthetic. Like, people should take their health into their own hands, whether that’s, you know, their, um, the quality of the air in their homes down to the things that they put in their bodies, down to, you know, the, um, the medicine they’re using, all of that. It’s basically like, you know, educating people to be more health conscious and figuring out ways to to do that. And so, I mean, the Maha movement is very big on on people like, do it yourself, health companies like, um, you know, companies that let you like levels is um, Casey Means.

[00:18:20] Doug Stuart: Yep. Casey means.

[00:18:21] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, the the thing where you can get your own glucose monitor at home and, like, things where you can order your own lab tests and test your own levels and stuff like that. So I think that that’s, you know, part of it, and it definitely is also tied to a skepticism about maybe traditional health bodies in some ways. Um, but when you see what people are describing as Maha, I mean, it’s so all over the place. It’s just, it’s, it’s this huge collection because, I mean, you’ve got you’ve got different groups that are pushing it, right? You’ve got, you know, just people who are just like moms who are kind of apolitical, but who have sort of like latched on like, oh, like, these are the people who care about this stuff that I care about, like crunchy moms. So I’m gonna I’m gonna use this label. You’ve got people who are specifically political who are literally within the Trump administration who are, you know, um, acolytes of RFK, whatever, who are who are using it for very political reasons. You’ve got a lot of grifters, you know, who are sort of latching on in order to like, sell their, their whatever supplements they’re hawking or their, you know, their personal dietary advice, whatever. So I think it’s, you know, it’s really hard to say what exactly it is. Um, but I think you can say kind of what ties it together. And like I said, you know, this, this do it yourself ethos, this sort of slight skepticism of like old health advice or, you know, establishment health authorities, things like that.

[00:19:34] Doug Stuart: Yeah, I remember listening to so I’ve read Casey Means book, I read Peter Attia, I’ve read Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying’s book, uh, which isn’t really Maha per se, but they’re very much in the Maha movement. And I remember listening to an episode of, um, I don’t know what it was. It might have been like an episode of honestly or something, where Jillian Michaels and Casey Meas, who wrote the book with Casey Means were talking about the stuff and they were getting Q and A or whatever, and I just remember thinking, wow, I’ve like, sort of adopted a lot of the principles that I’ve read about in their books or whatever, but there’s like so much more. It’s like, you mean I got to get a whole house water filter now, too. Like it’s just like there’s a little bit of, like you can’t be purist enough kind of vibe to it.

[00:20:13] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: And that’s why I kind of, I mean, and again, like, that’s fine to talk about. Right. Because if you want to go those levels like fine. But I hate when people act like, like, oh, if you’re not doing this like you’re not, you know you don’t care about your health. You don’t care about your kids health.

[00:20:24] Doug Stuart: Because, again, borderline cult, borderline cult behavior. There, there.

[00:20:28] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Right. I mean, a lot of this stuff. I think one of the things that does, you know, I’m probably more crunchy than a lot of people at reason, but, um, but one thing where I kind of fall back maybe on the thing is, like, you know, reason longtime science correspondent Ronald Bailey is always writing about, like, dose dependency and like, so much of this stuff, you know, it’s like you’ll show a study where, like, yes, this thing may be carcinogenic. This thing may have like, negative properties. If you look at the study where they like, you know, like shot rats up with like 300 times the amount that you’re exposed to in your house. And then people but people like health influencers will look at this and be like, oh, like, look, this thing happened in rats. And so this is probably bad for us. Get it all out of your home. And it’s just like you need to consider the dose. Like again, that’s not saying that these things aren’t, you know, maybe toxic to us, but it’s not necessarily saying that they are too. And I think there’s there’s a tendency within within the movement to sort of look at anything that might potentially cause any harm at all and sort of act like it’s, you know, a sure thing that we need to address, right?

[00:21:24] Doug Stuart: Like walking by somebody who’s smoking is going to harm you more than that. You know, small, small bag of whatever you just said is bad for you, right? Yeah. No, I get that for sure.

[00:21:34] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Um, which is funny, though, because it used to be such a thing on the left, you know, like this. Is that used to be something I would associate with, like, you know, sort of the crunchy left.

[00:21:43] Doug Stuart: So let’s let’s pivot to that a moment and then we can talk about possible libertarian appeals. Why is it that the crunchy moms were usually left leaning in the 90s, and now they’re either they’re quiet or they’re not so much? Or is it a different group, do you think? Or is it, um, it’s just coding a different way.

[00:22:03] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. I mean, I think some of it is there’s always been like a certain amount of like, you know, like, um, crunchy sort of the crunchy. Right. Like, you know, there always were sort of a conservative traditionalist that were like, you know, homeschooling and baking their own bread. There was sort of the crunchy cons. Rod Dreher wrote about, you know, there always has been this this strain within.

[00:22:22] Doug Stuart: Yeah, that was a new term. That was a new term for me when reading your your article or your conversation. I didn’t know that that existed. I mean, I knew people who were healthy could also be conservative. Obviously it’s not exclusive, but that was new for me.

[00:22:34] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. I mean, yeah. And he wrote about that in like starting in like 2002 or 3 was when he started talking about that, you know. So, um, so there’s always been this strain, um, and Jesse Walker, my colleague pointed out, like the John Birch Society or Birchers were very into sort of, um, healthy because like, there’s, you know, there’s no reason why this stuff should be left alone. And in fact, sort of like home cooking and caring about, like, naturalness, like.

[00:22:55] Doug Stuart: It’s very traditional.

[00:22:56] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah, yeah. Um, but I think it’s just sort of, um, for various reasons, a lot of this became coded as left. I mean, if you think of what I think is the most incredible is just like by the, by the 2000, right? Like all I remember from that period with Republicans is them being like, because the left was into sort of healthy eating and was sort of associated with, you know, green living and all the stuff. Like it was just mocked endlessly by the right. And they were like, we’re gonna do the opposite. Like we’re gonna eat like triple bacon cheeseburgers and fries and like, these Big Gulp sodas, and you can’t take them away from us. And in part, it’s because you did have a lot of sort of like, nanny state stuff happening on the left, like, you know, soda taxes or we’re gonna ban and all this stuff. So I think it was sort of some of it was sort of a reaction to actually bad policies that we didn’t want, but some of it was just sort of like, uh, anything that the left is, you know, for I’m against. And it was just kind of a.

[00:23:48] Doug Stuart: Reactionary.

[00:23:48] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Thing.

[00:23:49] Doug Stuart: Do you think that’s a part of what’s going on with the Maha? Right.

[00:23:52] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Uh, right now.

[00:23:53] Doug Stuart: Like that, they’re joining up with this sort of force because it’s just against what the left is for. The left is for. I mean, we didn’t talk about this yet, but you mentioned this about Covid, uh, in your conversation with Nick that Covid was a big deal where there was a lot of distrust sowed, uh, sown, you know, and so a lot of the right people were like, oh, we’re not going to trust the government anymore. And the left people were like, no, big Pharma is great. We worship Big pharma?

[00:24:16] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. No, I mean, I think Covid, like I said, like it is I read about in my article like Covid, Covid turbocharged everything. I think this was already starting to happen for various reasons. Like one because like, you know, the left sort of uh, a lot of the left sort of was clinging to this idea about low fat stuff and vegetarian diets because the left is very much into vegetarianism and veganism. More so, like even as advice sort of was changing about, you know, meat and saturated fat and, you know, whole whole fats and stuff like that. The left was sort of not getting on board. So that kind of left this, this room for the right. The left also sort of started abandoning, um, I’d say like in, like the 20 tens, like started sort of abandoning this sort of, um, nonpartisan or bipartisan, like sort of a Slow Foods, Whole Foods movement sort of vibe because of concerns about elitism, concerns that it was, you know, there was a lot of cultural appropriation involved, concerns that it was sexist, concerns that it was body shaming because you had to be healthy at any size. And talking about, you know, people trying to eat better so that they might lose weight and not be obese. Was like was not, you know, embracing like body positivity.

[00:25:19] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: So there are all these reasons why like, that ground was sort of just like seated by the, by the left. And I think even before Covid, the right was sort of like, okay, like maybe actually and also then, you know, with Obamacare, um, the left got very much into like actually like we’re against sort of a do it yourself health stuff, like we’re for pharmaceutical companies. We are for making sure that everything goes through like the government insurance and pharmaceutical companies working together. And that’s how we promote health like that one way, this sort of institutionalized way. And so there was this sort of like void for anybody who did care. And so I think you had a little bit of like the right stepping into that void. And you also had a little bit of the people who were not necessarily political being like, well, the left doesn’t really seem to care about these interests of mine anymore. And so when Covid happened and, uh, and yeah, I mean, the left sort of got even more, you know, or Democrats or whatever, got even sort of more tied to big, big health, you know, with pharmaceutical companies and insurance and all that, and also sort of, um, you know, there was this feeling that they were, you know, shutting down gyms and not letting people exercise and do all this stuff.

[00:26:23] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: And so, like, you know, I talked to like, a yoga teacher who was like, oh my gosh, like so many of my friends who were, you know, by like owned gyms or taught yoga or anything, were in the business of bodies sort of were like kind of associated with right-wingers during the pandemic because they were the only ones who were like, hey, maybe you should let these people like, you know, teach and do do exercise still. And, uh, and then people started calling them right-wingers. And a lot of them were like, okay, well, I guess fine. I guess I’m part of the right now. So I think there was. Yeah. And then, you know, at the same time, you have some moms who were maybe skeptical of vaccines a little bit to begin with, or various things who sort of, again, wouldn’t have considered themselves. Right. But during Covid were then called right-wingers and sort of started them being like, okay, well, I’ll start paying attention to these right-wingers and then sort of have all kind of been lumped into the right now just by virtue of the things that they’re interested in.

[00:27:09] Doug Stuart: Belonging to a tribe is is amazingly powerful. Yeah. And I think there’s a little bit of, I don’t know, maybe maybe you don’t buy into the critical race theory explanation that John McWhorter has, which is it sort of functions like a religion in a lot of ways. But there in my mind, I picture that phenomenon in the 20 tens happening where the identity politics and tribalism of, um, we can just call it woke culture. At this point, um, function much as a religion in a way overpowered any sort of like tribal slash cult like behavior of what what would later become the Maha movement. And so you had to sort of see the yielding of or the ceding of, of ground to. Oh, well, wait, I can’t cook that because it’s cultural appropriation or I can’t cook that because I’m white and I have to feel guilty about everything I do. Um, and I have to just watch everything I do. And those things seemed more obvious to prove. Like, you can’t disprove whether or not you have white privilege as a person, because as soon as you try to, you’re like, well, there’s your white privilege, there’s your and so forth. And so there’s still that that seemed stronger. I’m I’m postulating here that seemed stronger than, well, it’s okay to just, you know, it. I have to choose to eat healthier foods instead of just eating whatever. You know, Kellogg’s puts in front of you and sells on the shelf. Um, I don’t know if that holds any water in your mind. Uh, but I don’t know. You want to respond to that.

[00:28:37] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I mean, yeah, I definitely think that that there was that was part of it. You know, I think it was like like I said, like, there’s a lot of different factors, but I think, yeah, like, you couldn’t have people talking about just like enjoying different cuisines without like, you know, without being attacked as doing the cultural appropriation thing. Um, for a while, it was sort of it sort of got ridiculous and it felt like, yeah, it just felt like food on the left became really, really complicated in a different, you know, like in a way that it was just like you couldn’t just. It was very different than the than the, you know, Michael Palin era. I keep mentioning it, but it was very different from the era of just like, you know, like eat simple whole foods like go to the farmers market, like cook, enjoy all these different things from all these different cuisines, as long as they’re, you know, home cooking. And then suddenly it was just like it was fraught with with all these different. Yeah. Like sort of things you had to consider if you were on the left.

[00:29:26] Doug Stuart: Problematic is the word I think they use. Yes.

[00:29:29] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. I think that, that, yes, that, that, that sort of turned a lot of people off of. Yeah.

[00:29:35] Doug Stuart: Well ironically though, you’d think like for telling people to avoid those kinds of things and cooking natural foods that were from, you know, other cultures. I mean, we don’t I was about to say allegedly other cultures, but that’s not true. It’s from other cultures. Is is effectively pushing you into a I mean, in their minds, it would be this sort of like white colonialist commercialism, commercialized, uh, food diet. And it’s like, well, wait, you’re just pushing everybody in the literal opposite direction. And also you’re not healthy. Like, it’s very counterproductive.

[00:30:04] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I mean, or also just this idea that I don’t know. I mean, I’m really glad that the whole cultural appropriation thing has started to die down because obviously there are some, like really egregious ways where you can do cultural appropriation that I think you shouldn’t do. But like, yeah, it kind of became this idea that like, you know, like you couldn’t be a chef opening a restaurant that was like fusion because, you know, or like you needed to, which was like you needed to stick to your culture, which is just offensive to everyone, you know. Like, it’s obviously offensive no matter what your race, no matter what your ethnicity, because it’s just like what you can only cook these things. And then when you try to like actually drill back, like, well, who was the first person, you know, what was the first culture to cook this food? And also is usually way more complicated than people would pretend like. It’s like actually this was, you know, all this blending for hundreds and hundreds of years. There’s not no culture owns a particular ingredient, you know, like.

[00:30:51] Doug Stuart: Yeah, yeah. Is it bad for me to think that Americans have improved a lot of other cultures? Food.

[00:30:57] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I mean, I don’t know. I yeah.

[00:30:59] Doug Stuart: I’ve got, I’ve been to big cities like New York and Chicago and other places. It’s like, um, yeah, this is I’ve never, you know, this tastes really good. And I, you know, some people are like, oh, yeah, well, that’s not how they do it in Italy or that’s not how they do it in Japan. It’s it’s way simpler. And I’m just like, you mean without less with with less taste, I don’t know.

[00:31:18] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Well, I mean, I think that’s the beauty. Like, that’s why cultural appropriation can be beautiful. Like, that’s how we’ve gotten so many good foods, is through centuries of people mixing their cultures together to make better products. When you combine, you know, different. Yeah, different methods of cooking, different ingredients, all sorts of things. So yeah.

[00:31:34] Doug Stuart: So do you do you think it’s settling on the left at all? Like do you think the left is also settling down on that or is it just we’re not noticing it anymore because it’s not drawing attention?

[00:31:41] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Because I also think that this has always been a minority of people, a very small minority of people on the left. Right. Like, I think that the vast majority of people who are who vote Democrat or who consider themselves more, you know, more progressive or liberal or whatever, like we’re not these people who were just sort of like militant about Anti-cultural appropriation and who are going around accusing everyone of privilege all the time, just doing all like. But it’s just like because of the media landscape and because of the social media landscape of a particular, like maybe, you know, ten year ish stretch. Like it just became really easy for those people to dominate the conversation and sort of set the priorities for, you know, Democratic politicians or what was going to be talked about in leftist leaning, you know, papers and stuff like it. Just those people had an outsized voice, I think, for a long time. And I think that is dying down, which is good.

[00:32:32] Doug Stuart: Yeah. Okay. No, I can see that. And, you know, I would of course agree with that. So I want to talk about the kind of a big question here, which is like, okay, we have two, two libertarians here talking about this. We’re talking about it relatively positively. Um, but there’s there’s a little problem in the whole Maha thing, which is the Make America Healthy again, as opposed to just simply the movement being make yourself healthy again or something like that. Um, there’s a little bit of a libertarian appeal to me, and you can tell me how you feel about this where there’s this like, appeal to for Maha, there’s an appeal to personal responsibility. There’s this idea of freedom of choice. We shouldn’t be forced to eat something. We don’t know what’s in it or we don’t. You know, we need to, you know, have transparency of information. Um, and then there’s the more a little bit more recent skeptical of government guidelines, especially since Covid. Um, so how how much does your libertarian impulse and instincts affect your attraction to this, this kind of movement?

[00:33:27] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. I mean, I think that that’s definitely, definitely a part of it. I mean, I like that it is. I like that it’s all about personal responsibility. I like that there’s this ethos of like, don’t wait for the experts to, you know, order these particular tests like order them yourself online. I like that it’s encouraging all these startups that are like like I wore a blood glucose, like I had gestational diabetes. Well, they thought I did. It turns out I just have some, like, weird, uh, glucose tolerance issues. So, like, I often wear, um, glucose monitor, um, so I could get a handle on it and, you know, like, I had to sort of go through this company where it was like I went through signals, which is like they wrote you a prescription because you could still only get them through with a prescription until last summer. But, you know, like, I love all these companies that are like enabling people to sort of take, you know, responsibility for their health at home. Um.

[00:34:13] Doug Stuart: So it’s also becoming less expensive, too.

[00:34:16] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, now and now that you don’t have to have a prescription for it, it’s it’s much like the glucose monitors in particular. Like it’s obviously it’s less expensive. So like, yeah, just just the deregulatory push that some of it is all about like I think in general, a lot of what is considered Maha is, is great and is great from a libertarian standpoint. And I think the danger is that though we also have this kind of trying to like people are trying to be like, oh, but we can easily couple that with like Robert F Kennedy and with the Trump administration pushing these things and like to the extent that it’s like, let’s push for like deregulation or whatever, you know, okay. But like it’s a lot turned into like actually let’s have them do now that they’re in power. Let’s have them do all the things that we think everyone should do and like, mandate these things. And like, that’s where I think the danger is happening. Is that like this movement that started off very much about do it yourself and, you know, is kind of then like getting a little bit like, okay, but now we’re now we’ve got people, our people in power. Why don’t we use that power to force certain things on everybody?

[00:35:19] Doug Stuart: How do you feel about some of that? Do you feel like that’s wrong, or do you feel like we’re undoing harms? Done. I feel like like if they like, for example, I’ll give you an example. If they literally inverted the food pyramid and said, hey, here’s our new food pyramid, I would shrug and say, okay, that’s a whole lot better. No big deal.

[00:35:34] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yes, I mean yes and no. I would just rather them get rid of the food pyramid, right? Like I think why put energy into this thing that, like, shouldn’t probably exist and is always going to be captured by interest? Because even if they do it, like, I still don’t actually believe that that the Trump administration would do it perfect without being captured by some interest. And then I also don’t believe that it would stay that way through the next administration. You know, like, just why not do away with it? Um, I think that there’s a lot of things that it’s like even the food dye stuff on the one level, it’s like, I mean, who could be against getting rid of food dyes? And if they’re just doing it by like persuasion of private companies, I think that’s great. But like the mandates, again, I don’t think it’s great because I want to just, you know, I don’t think that’s the role, the proper role of the government. But to we don’t know. And like part of the reason we have so many bad things in our diet now is because the government ordered or pressured companies to stop using certain ingredients. So then they their replacements turned out to be worse. And it’s like, I don’t think some of the dyes that they’re going to use.

[00:36:33] Doug Stuart: You’re talking about like the trans fats and the seed oils. Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:35] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: And stuff like, you know, and like all the pressure to stop using lard and stop using tallow. So then everyone started using seed oils. And so it’s just like, you know, um, I, I don’t we can’t say for sure that our things that we think now are going to be healthy actually are like nutrition is still unsettled. So I just don’t want I don’t want these things to create new orthodoxies that are enforced by the federal government that then might take decades to undo if we find out that the science is actually wrong, you know.

[00:37:03] Doug Stuart: So let me give you what I this is somebody asked me like, well, how, how how are these regulations and particularly things like red dye 40 is kind of like the kind of the talking point or the, the litmus test for like, this is something that has been known in other countries or determined in other countries by, I guess, whatever health apparatus, health health bureaucracies that this is, this is not good for, for human consumption. Um, and it’s outlawed and it becomes this sort of like, well, maybe it’s some type of poison, maybe it’s something that is doing harm. And so my, the, my sort of anarchist libertarian defense of that could be this is what I came up with. And you can tell me what you think is that it is sort of the equivalent of telling, um, telling industrial, manufacturers that they can’t pollute the waters because that is affecting other people because or similar to cigarette companies where they don’t, where they hide the actual deleterious effects of of smoking. And they, you know, at first they made it sound like it was healthy and then they just kind of were like, yeah, okay, do whatever you want to do. Um, but we’re not going to tell you it’s healthy. And so they kind of hide the health benefits. So in some sense there’s this sort of like limited government defense of we’re going to make sure that Kellogg’s isn’t putting poison in your food and telling you that it’s okay to eat, um, like, they can’t they can’t lie to you. They can’t tell you that something is going in that you’re that you’re consuming something healthy when it actually isn’t. That’s the best I could come up with in terms of like, well, okay, maybe those kinds of regulations are good because we often, you know, the whole pollution argument. Basically.

[00:38:42] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I think the question is how much science actually is there about this stuff. And again, because I think some of this, some of the fear about some of these dyes is, um, is a little bit based on stuff where it’s like, again, like if you were eating it in these huge quantities. Okay. But like there’s not necessarily evidence showing that these solid things. But I mean, I yeah, I’m not gonna get super worked up about the, the food dye bans. You know, I’m not gonna like again. Like my impulse would be like.

[00:39:07] Doug Stuart: The problem in West Virginia isn’t food dye.

[00:39:09] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. Like, I’m just like, you know what? Like I it of all the things, I think it’s more. It’s a little bit weird, too, though, somehow, like, Maha victories are being declared like, aha, we got Froot Loops to change their things. And I know, like, baby steps. Sure. But like, also it’s like we’re using, like, different, you know, uh, different fats to cook like French fries. And we’re using like, different dyes in like, the worst sugary cereals. Um, it’s it seems.

[00:39:37] Doug Stuart: Like the vibe shift might be worth it, though. Do you think the vibe shift might be worth it? Like, okay, fine, we’ve made a few mistakes. We’ve banned things we didn’t have to ban because, you know, every libertarian believes that we should have as much red dye 40 as we want in our bodies, right? Like that is the position we ought to take. It should be illegal. It should be legal for us to have it if we want it. Um, but at the same time, it’s like, okay, so we made bad choices in regulatory in a regulatory way, but let’s say in the next 5 to 10 years, you have Americans thinking a lot more holistically. And I don’t mean food holistically, but just holistically about the whole food industry. Right. Oh, it’s an industry. Oh, there’s commercial interest. Oh, I can have choices like that. I mean, I know somebody who’s not very happy that RFK Jr was, is HHS, uh, head of HHS. But the person, because of the, um, her opinion about him on vaccines and some of the what my friend calls kooky, kooky theories about it. Um, that’s kind of an irrelevant point for the moment. But they were like, you know, but if we can change the direction that that Americans are thinking about with activity and health and what we’re eating, that’s probably going to be an overall win. Um, I don’t know. I feel like the vibe shift might be worth it, but maybe I’m just getting all caught up in things that I’m that I like.

[00:40:50] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: No, I think the vibe shift is great. I just think we don’t necessarily need, like, you know, uh, the mandates or the new regulations or whatever in order for the vibe shift to happen. Right. Like because the vibe shifts already happening on the right, which I just think is, is huge. Like it’s hard for me to overstate, I think how much how different it feels that the right is talking about food than it did, like, you know, 15 years ago. And like, if it’s just like we’ve made it like, okay, for conservatives and men to care about nutrition and not be like, oh, that’s gay. Oh, that’s like a sissy thing. Like, oh, that’s only.

[00:41:21] Doug Stuart: For.

[00:41:21] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Women, you know, like or liberals like that’s that in and of itself is huge. So I think yeah, I mean I think the vibe shift is important. I just don’t know that like it goes hand in hand with some of the, the more, you know, government stuff.

[00:41:34] Doug Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, was what um, I want to switch to a lightning round and just ask you a few questions. But before we get to that, I just want to say, do you do you have friends or family members who ask you why in the world that’s in your kitchen or in your pantry? Like, oh yeah. Are there any.

[00:41:50] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Things? I’m like the weirdest eater. Like they’re.

[00:41:51] Doug Stuart: All really?

[00:41:52] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:53] Doug Stuart: Okay. I must be lucky. Are. Most of my extended family has slowly adopted this, and they just don’t look at us as weird. But is there anything in particular, like, do you have, like, tubs of beef tallow on your on your kitchen counter?

[00:42:05] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I cook with ghee. I haven’t gotten into beef tallow yet.

[00:42:09] Doug Stuart: Um, it’s a little pricier than ghee, I think. I don’t.

[00:42:11] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Know. Yeah.

[00:42:12] Doug Stuart: You can cook.

[00:42:13] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I mean, I just think it’s in general, like they were laughing because, like, again, like my my son, you know, who’s about to turn four in the fall like he hadn’t he hasn’t had McDonald’s yet. People were talking about McDonald’s and he thought they were talking about like old McDonald had a farm. Um, and so like, they just think it’s crazy that like, just just, you know, I more so than even any particular ingredients or foods, they just think it’s they think it’s kind of crazy that I, um, you know, that we avoid certain things. And again, like, my kids are, you know, they’re about to be two and four, Like they don’t know these things. Again, I’m not going to say they can never have these things. Like once they get old enough that, you know. But like, I just don’t see the need to introduce all this stuff to, to my children.

[00:42:51] Doug Stuart: Like, yeah. No, I hear you.

[00:42:53] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: When they have no idea about it.

[00:42:54] Doug Stuart: So when you drive by and they see the golden arches, do you tell them that corporate interests have advertised red and yellow to make them feel younger?

[00:43:02] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I do not. We just they just don’t even notice it. And I mean like, you know, that’s good. And we do eat some fast food. We eat Chick-fil-A because but like you can get, you know, grilled nuggets and fruit cups there. So um.

[00:43:12] Doug Stuart: That is literally that’s so funny that you say that I was I was almost going to comment on it. Now I will, uh, that is literally the only fast food that I eat. And it’s not very often my, my son actually works at a Chick-fil-A, and I honestly they are. That’s their pleasure to serve us. Yeah. They, uh, I think honestly, it was like because I grew up, I grew up in, um, an area where there were a lot of, you know, conservative Christians. That was the church, an area that I grew up in. Um, and there were two Chick-fil-A’s near us, and it was just so cool to have this, like, fast food restaurant that was owned by Christians. And so and we just ate there a lot. Not primarily because of that. I mean, we did actually enjoy the food, but somehow that is that is like the last bad habit for me to, to, to stop. Um, but you can get healthy things at Chick-fil-A, but, um, anyway. Okay, uh, I have a few lightning round questions if you’re okay with it. Most of most of this is fun, but it’ll be revealing to some extent. All right, uh, when you flip over the, uh, package of food, when you’re shopping, what’s the first ingredient you look at on the label?

[00:44:08] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Oh, what? Like how much carbs is in it? And if there’s added sugars and things like that.

[00:44:12] Doug Stuart: Okay. All right. Good. Uh, well, I kind of already blew it on this question. Uh, beef tallow or lard?

[00:44:18] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Uh, so I don’t cook with either of them. Yeah, yeah, so I don’t.

[00:44:22] Doug Stuart: Okay. But if you had to buy a product like I literally you buy potato chips that are in lard, or.

[00:44:26] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I would probably buy beef tallow.

[00:44:28] Doug Stuart: Yeah. It just.

[00:44:29] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Sounds it sounds.

[00:44:29] Doug Stuart: Nice. They do it well. Oh, tallow. It’s like beef fat or pig fat like.

[00:44:34] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah, I know it.

[00:44:36] Doug Stuart: Sounds so much more elitist.

[00:44:39] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Exactly. It’s like the fancy version of lard.

[00:44:41] Doug Stuart: All right, what’s your go to protein snack?

[00:44:44] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Uh, a roll nuts or, like, turkey jerky.

[00:44:48] Doug Stuart: Really? Okay. Yeah. Supplements. Dangerous trend or.

[00:44:52] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: What? Surprised?

[00:44:53] Doug Stuart: Uh, I don’t know why. I guess turkey jerky I’ve just never found appealing. Like. But no raw nuts like I. The little packets of nuts that I can get in large quantities at Costco. Those are. Those are my go to when I’m, like, biking and I need something. Yeah. Supplements. Dangerous trend or a wise strategy.

[00:45:08] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Oh my gosh, I take so many supplements.

[00:45:12] Doug Stuart: So okay.

[00:45:13] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Strategy.

[00:45:14] Doug Stuart: We can talk afterward about who has the most, who has the taller supplement stack, uh, weightlifting or cardio?

[00:45:20] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Uh, neither. Uh, weightlifting, weightlifting I do.

[00:45:25] Doug Stuart: You gotta have an answer.

[00:45:26] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I do bar in Pilates. So, um, I mean, I guess that’s.

[00:45:29] Doug Stuart: More that’s strength training. More so than cardio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, raw or pasteurized milk?

[00:45:35] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Pasteurize.

[00:45:36] Doug Stuart: All right. Here’s a would you rather here’s a would you rather dilemma Mountain Dew or Red Bull?

[00:45:41] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Oh, I guess Red Bull I don’t know.

[00:45:44] Doug Stuart: I probably would do that too because it’s probably more meant to be long lasting or short lasting. Mcrib or Beyond Meat.

[00:45:50] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Oh, Beyond meat.

[00:45:52] Doug Stuart: Cheetos are little, little Debbie.

[00:45:54] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Uh, Cheetos. I mean, I still like the taste of Cheeto, you know, like, I don’t really eat them, but, like, they’re still good, whereas Little Debbie’s. I’m just like, why does anyone want this?

[00:46:03] Doug Stuart: Yeah. No. Good, good. Good point. Grass fed ribeye. Or a big scoop of raw milk ice cream.

[00:46:09] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Uh.

[00:46:09] Doug Stuart: Those those are good. Two options.

[00:46:11] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: My grass-fed ribeye be well done.

[00:46:14] Doug Stuart: Oh, no. What?

[00:46:16] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Because I would take the meat if I could cook it really well.

[00:46:19] Doug Stuart: Do you not like you like well-done meat.

[00:46:21] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: I do, I do.

[00:46:22] Doug Stuart: Okay. All right. You know, my, uh, my dad, that was roughly the only way he knew how to cook it. I think it was just. I don’t know if he. He knows to order differently, but, like, when he cooked it at home, like. So. I only grew up when we had steaks or whatever. I only had well-done meat. And then I learned that there was something called medium rare, and I was like, oh, okay, I can do this.

[00:46:40] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Well done stuff at home.

[00:46:42] Doug Stuart: Gotcha, gotcha. Uh, yeah. All right. Liz, I really appreciate this conversation. Um, where can people find you? Uh, I know they can find you at reason. Uh reason.com. Uh, any socials you want to promote and, um, anything else that’s upcoming for you, articles you’re working on. Uh, people should know about.

[00:46:59] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: And now I’m working on something about pro natalism, which will be my next big reason, uh, cover story, but.

[00:47:04] Doug Stuart: It’ll be a cover.

[00:47:05] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. Uh, well, actually, no. Sorry. My next big reason feature. I don’t know if it’ll be over. I don’t know if it’ll be a cover or not.

[00:47:10] Doug Stuart: Um, that’s up to Catherine, I guess.

[00:47:12] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Yeah. That’s always. Yeah. Uh, you can find me on Twitter, but I’m not there very much anymore. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Ian Brown. You can find me on Bluesky at Ian Brown. Um, yeah. About it. Just sign up for my sex and tech newsletter at reason and, uh. Yeah.

[00:47:28] Doug Stuart: All right. Well, thank you, Liz. Uh, and, uh, I appreciate you having me on.

[00:47:32] Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Thank you.

[00:47:32] Doug Stuart: Appreciate you being on.

[00:47:36] Voiceover: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Libertarianchristians.com podcast. If you liked today’s episode, we encourage you to rate us on Apple Podcasts to help expand our audience. If you want to reach out to us, email us at podcast@libertarianchristians.com. You can also reach us at @LCIOfficial on Twitter. And of course we are on Facebook and have an active group. You are welcome to join. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time.

[00:47:59] Voiceover: The Libertarian Christian Podcast is a project of Libertarian Christian Institute, a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit. If you’d like to find out more about LCI, visit us on the web at libertarianchristians.com. The voiceovers are by Matt Bellis and Kathryn Williams. As of episode 115, our audio production is provided by Podsworth Media. Check them out at podsworthmedia.com.

LCI uses automated transcripts from various sources. If you see a significant error, please let us know.