Ep 421: The Case for Dads, with Adam B. Coleman

LCP Episode 421 – Adam Coleman.mp3

[00:00:03] Voiceover: Welcome to the show that gets Christians thinking about faith and politics. Get ready to challenge the status quo. Expand your imagination and tackle controversy head on. Let’s stand together at the intersection of faith and freedom. It’s time for the Libertarian Christian podcast.

[00:00:22] Cody Cook: You are listening to the Libertarian Christian Podcast, a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute and a member of the Christians for Liberty network. That’s a lot of stuff to remember, which is why I write it down. Our guest today is Adam B Coleman. Adam is an author and the founder of Wrong Speak Publishing. He writes openly about his personal struggles with fatherlessness, homelessness and masculinity. His most recent book is “The Children We Left Behind”. He’s a great follow on Twitter, and I was fortunate to get to meet him at a FreedomFest this year, where we recorded a short interview on the floor, which I think by now should be on YouTube. I’d hoped we could do a longer conversation when we chatted at FreedomFest, and he was willing to come on to the Libertarian Christian podcast to talk with me. So, Adam, thanks for being here.

[00:01:06] Adam Coleman: My pleasure. Thank you.

[00:01:08] Cody Cook: Okay, so your latest book, “The Children We Left Behind”, uh, just maybe we’ll start with, like, an elevator pitch. What’s it about? What are you hoping to accomplish with it?

[00:01:15] Adam Coleman: I’m hoping to accomplish a lot with it, but, um, what it’s about, I guess you could say the thesis of the book is talking about how the biggest, major issues. I guess you could say the major issues, the top major issues that are difficult within our society to solve, whether it be drug addiction, homelessness, violent crime, things of that nature, all of those things have a very common origin, and that’s family separation. So for many of these people, I’ve talked to people who worked in juvie who’ve worked in law enforcement, and they’ll all tell you the same thing. The vast majority of these people are coming from childhoods where it’s very tumultuous, Us where there are other single-parent homes. Maybe they’re coming from foster care, aged out of the system, ended up on the streets, things of that nature. But I think socially we only focus on the outcome. But we don’t ask enough questions about, well, how did it start? Because we’re all born and we’re all children, and no one’s born to be a thief, right? So certain things happen throughout that person’s life to, to come to that point where they make a choice in the same way. I kind of sort of talk about it in the book, but like, I don’t think I go in depth when it comes to certain aspects of mental health.

[00:02:31] Adam Coleman: I talk about my mental health, but often we’ll say, oh, the person on the street, they have mental health problems, but they talk about it like they were born with it and they don’t understand. It’s like anything else. If if you break your leg and it’s not treated, then it might heal wrong. And so you have a limp, right? But you didn’t. It didn’t just magically have a limp. Like there’s a progress, a certain things happening. So when you have someone who had traumatic events when they were a child, and then maybe they started using drugs and their teenage years and their brain hasn’t fully developed and they’re taking psychotics and all types of stuff. Right? That stuff makes people crazy. Like, but we don’t ever associate. We just oh, they have mental health problems. As if one day they just woke up that way and it’s like, no, there’s there’s a line of traumatic events, a line of negative consequences that that came in their, in their direction. Maybe it started when they were kids and it continued into their adulthood.

[00:03:37] Adam Coleman: And more often than not, that’s the case. But that guy who’s schizophrenic, who’s laying on the street on the bed, he wasn’t schizophrenic at the age of five. Right? So I’m just wondering if people ever make that connection, especially when you see that these very people often take drugs which don’t help your mental health. So I don’t think a lot of people make that association. Some people make the association as far as drug usage and mental health imbalance, but they also don’t make the association as far as well. Why do people take drugs when they’re teenagers? Right. It’s one thing to, you know, smoke a joint and, and, uh, you’re doing it with your friends, and you’re just you’re experimenting. What I’m talking about is, and there are, unfortunately, a lot of kids who start drinking alcohol and taking drugs at very, very early ages. And then you ask the question, well, why? And how were they able to even have that happen? Right. Which tells you even more that they weren’t protected. Someone wasn’t looking out for them and they were vulnerable. So, you know, I know I kind of gave you I said, it’s supposed to be elevator pitch, but. Yeah.

[00:04:46] Cody Cook: Well, that’s okay. It’s an elevator at Trump Tower. It’s a little longer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What you said about drugs made me think of. We recently had on on the podcast Jane Claire Tyner, um, who’s a communications manager for End It For Good, which is kind of focused on the drug war, and she makes some really interesting similar points. And she talks about the kind of the Rat Park experiments that people tend to talk about a lot with the. You’re familiar with the experiments I’m talking about where, yeah, you know, rats were they were doing all these experiments on rats where, um, in isolation and they were getting them hooked on heroin laced water. Um, but they found out somebody who knew a lot about rats. Rats are social creatures. Let’s put them instead of isolating them, let’s put them in a cage together. And what he found was very few of those rats became heroin addicted, even though they had the option to do it. And so, yeah, drug drug abuse tends to be downstream from something else, as you’re mentioning. Exactly. Yeah. And so and one of those key things that it’s downstream, downstream from um, which is I think largely the subject of your book is fatherlessness. And so, you know, I think as a society, we, you know, congratulate you know, often rightly. I think, you know, single mothers who work hard in difficult circumstances. But sometimes that covers up another reality, which is that growing up without a father is actually a real handicap. And that, you know, sometimes the lionizing of single motherhood can, can obscure that, right? So, yeah, so, so I mean, what outcomes specifically does fatherlessness tend to bring about that you don’t see so often in two-parent homes?

[00:06:14] Adam Coleman: Well, we’ll skip over like the big obvious stuff like what I just mentioned, because there’s a lot of underlying things that could lead into bigger issues. And I’ll use myself. I’ll say confidence. There is something about having a male figure reassure, especially boys. Having a male figure reassure that what he is doing is okay, or his mistake is okay, because we all make mistakes, right? And encouragement to keep, keep going, keep moving forward. And the problem that I faced was that when I made mistakes when I was younger, I thought something was wrong with me and that that mindset kind of continued into my adult years. Right. If I had a girlfriend who broke up with me, I thought something was wrong with me. And so making everything about finding validation externally. And you’re for a lot of people, they’re ultimately searching for something that they don’t have within them. Their father is supposed to install that confidence, right? He’s supposed to reassure them. And it becomes like a muscle, right? You exercise repeatedly and then you don’t necessarily need to hear it. You actually believe and you understand that I can do these things and I can achieve these things. And you know what? I am not good at that. But I am good at this.

[00:07:33] Adam Coleman: Right. And this is this is something that I didn’t have when I was a kid, you know, with my father not being active in my life. But I saw, um, and I still see how my son is way ahead of where I was, and he’s 19 now, but he’s way ahead at the age of 19. As far as confidence, as far as purpose, direction, what he wants to do. And I’m sure he’s like any other young person. You know, he has some questions as far as how to approach certain things. Maybe he didn’t experience that before, but he’s not thrown off by something that is new. And I think the thing that especially that he has that I didn’t have, I didn’t have anyone to call, I didn’t have another male figure to call and say, I don’t know how to do this or am I doing this right? Do you think this is a good idea? I didn’t have that. And you know, my mother is a good woman, but like, it’s not the same. And I also, when I was younger, I didn’t feel comfortable being vulnerable with my mother. It actually took me a long time to even feel that way. To share my insecurities with her.

[00:08:45] Cody Cook: Was that partly because feeling that she was in such a difficult situation, that you felt like you had to sort of be the man in the household and not kind of put things on her. Was that was that the concern or.

[00:08:56] Adam Coleman: No, I didn’t have. And there are a lot of single-parent households where you’re the man of the house kind of thing, and that wasn’t put on me. My sister was a was an older sister, so she kind of had that responsibility looking over her younger brother, which I wish she didn’t have that burden. But that’s a different, different topic. For me, it was. I didn’t know how one I didn’t think anyone cared about my feelings. So it wasn’t just sharing my feelings with my mom. It was kind of a general thing. But as I got older, I just didn’t. I didn’t feel 100% comfortable sharing that with her. I think partly it was I thought it would be used against me, which is a common thing why someone doesn’t share their feelings because they think that being vulnerable, that someone’s going to take that information and use it as a weapon against them. And so what I try to foster for my son was that from a very young age, we have open communication between us. I will always tell you the truth, and I want you to tell me the truth. And so just don’t lie to me. If you screw up, just tell me and we’ll figure it out together. But I’m not an asshole, father. Like, let’s work this out and learn something from it. If you have to get punished, you get punished. But we need to work on this so it doesn’t happen again. Just don’t lie to me. And I have the same respect back to him. So the only time I’ve ever really been mad at him was when he lied to me. He didn’t have to. He could have told me the truth and we could have figured out and worked through it. But he was embarrassed, and I. And I get it. You know, he’s a teenager, right?

[00:10:29] Cody Cook: So we talked a little bit about some of these kind of social and emotional impacts. And I think we’ll we’ll do that some more. But um, I was interested because I, you know, obviously the libertarian Christian podcast, um, about some of the stuff you write about how the kind of lack of relationship that you had with your father affected your relationship with God, um, which is, you know, I think one of sort of one of these perennial subjects that gets brought up, you know, um, Freud, you know, argued that, uh, you know, God was this kind of the belief in God was sort of this taking this idea of having a father and sort of projecting it onto the, you know, the cosmos or whatever. And, uh, some push back on Freud and said, well, that must be why so many, um, um, people who grew up with absent fathers are atheists, right? Taking that same psychology and using it the other direction. And for you, it did lead you into, uh, an agnosticism. Right? And then you sort of have a growing awareness of the spiritual world that opens your mind back to the existence of God. And I could I could relate to your struggle of trying to make sense of suffering, in this case, your own, um, with, with the existence of a good God. But but also having, um, a fundamental awareness that there’s a spiritual realm, that there’s metaphysical good and evil, and so they’re suffering. But on the other hand, it’s not meaningless. It fits into this context of good and evil. And so then that means that there’s there’s something more, right? And so, absolutely. Has your awareness of spiritual evil made it easier to trust God when the good is hard to see? I’m just kind of curious about that. I mean, not having the dad there to sort of instill faith. Um, have you been able to find that through some other means?

[00:12:07] Adam Coleman: Yeah, I well, actually go back to your your original question. I want to make sure I answer it properly.

[00:12:14] Cody Cook: That’s fine. Yeah. The, um. So I think I ended with, has your awareness of spiritual evil made it easier to trust God when the good is hard to see?

[00:12:22] Adam Coleman: Okay, that is a that is an interesting question. Um, and I think you’re the first person ever asked me that. Okay, um, how about this? I’ll answer in this way. The the good versus evil On text is not necessarily what I focus on today. What I came to understand, and it’s like once I learned this, it was like unlocking a door and looking beyond it and in everything made sense. I started understanding relationship of Christ from a relational aspect. And so just in the same way that I have my son, right. I have a relationship with him. He looks to me for guidance, but I can’t dictate his life like I can only show him things. I can try and be an influence, but I can’t tell him what to do. Like I can’t control his life. He has free will, right? Especially now that he’s an adult. He has free will. And it’s the same thing between my relationship with Christ is that he can’t interfere with everything in my life because it would intersect with my free will, right? And the only way to have love, genuine love is to have free will. Because free will love is a choice, right? It is a voluntary choice. And I started understanding that being a father, for example, would be like my father. He made a choice and not was not involved. I did the same thing, had a child and I made a choice to be involved. I made a choice to be involved in my son’s life and to love him regardless of anything that he’s going through.

[00:14:02] Adam Coleman: I chose to love my son, and that that is the risk of free will is that both exist in the same universe. You can have a father like mine who chose to step away, and you can have a father like me who chose to be involved. And so when I basically, I look at it as the existence of free will also means that the existence that people can make good and bad choices and that good and evil can coincide at the same time. So I try to look at it from, especially from a relational standpoint, that this is much more about my relationship with Christ. And I’ve had it’s not in the book because this is something that happened a few months ago, earlier this year. I’ve had, um, a spiritual attack and was able to call on my father and, and be saved and, and made me and actually in that I could if you want we can go into that later. But like that was like the first time I felt like a child calling on his father because I didn’t know what that felt like, but that’s what it felt like. I called my I called my father, and he came with a nuclear weapon and just blasted away the enemy because he was looking out for his child. That’s what it felt like for me. So it was a very emotional, um, Um, a very emotional experience that happened earlier this year. Well.

[00:15:36] Cody Cook: Well, yeah. And I mean, there is that obviously that connection fatherlessness and and atheism or or I mean, and for you finding a father in, in God that you didn’t really have on earth, right. Is is I understand why it’s very difficult, I think, for some people to be able to understand that or to be open to that. But I can also see how that would be really powerful, to have that experience, to have that, that something that you didn’t have before. And so I love what you said about that kind of relational aspect, that God is there. And, you know, of course, Christ is a model for us in a similar way that our our human fathers are supposed to be models for us to kind of help us figure out how to navigate through life. And, um, they don’t necessarily solve all of our problems or make everything easy for us, but they help us to navigate through. So there’s a lot that I could, I could explore. That’s good stuff. Yeah.

[00:16:25] Adam Coleman: And actually, if I can, if I can add to it. Yeah. For me, when I understand that when I read through the Bible and I need to get better about reading the Bible more frequently. But when I, especially when I go through the Gospels, I’m reading a book about relationships. Like, everything about it is just relational. And so sometimes I do have an issue when people flatten Christianity as just being this dogmatic. Do this because it’s good. Don’t do this because it’s bad. And they remove the relational aspect from it. It makes it feel non-human. Um, and to me I’m like, wait a second. So the point of Christ coming back was also to say that here is a model like, all right, let’s say before I gave you a bunch of commandments and I gave you some stories and maybe it’s hard for you to follow. But besides him being coming the Savior, um, in taking the sins of our own sense that we deserve unto himself, which is the ultimate sacrifice and ultimate sign of love. Right. Very relational. But besides, that is demonstrating a model of conduct.

[00:17:41] Adam Coleman: So if you don’t know what it looks like in a human, here it is. And so when I read through the Gospels, I’m reading about him healing people. I’m looking at the person, the tax collector that everyone hates, and reaching out to that man and pulling him forward and asking him is he can’t force him asking him to follow him. I’m watching all these people, his disciples who questioned him, even as he’s healing people and still having doubts. And he was fine with it. He had the grace, and he understood that. It’s hard for you to to continue on this path. He was fine with all these things. I’m like, I’m watching all of this different, the conduct of behavior and demonstration of love, even for the ultimate sinner the person, the prostitute, the tax collector, all the people that you’re not supposed to like, right? He had the most and I can’t remember if it’s in the Bible, but I’ve heard people say like, uh, I think it is in the Bible where Jesus says they need me the most, right? Something to that effect.

[00:18:46] Cody Cook: Um, it’s not the, um, um, the, the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. It’s kind of the idea, right? Right.

[00:18:53] Adam Coleman: Yeah, exactly. So I think about that. That’s why the relational aspect, even the Ten Commandments, um, thou shalt not kill. Why? Why shouldn’t you kill? Because it’s a violation of of a relationship with your brother and sister, right? Cain and Abel is an example of what happens if you do kill someone. I mean, not kill. Actually. It’s murder. You know, you should not cheat on your wife or cheat on your spouse. Why? Because it’s a violation of your relationship. Matter of fact, that the the, uh, divorce is not something that’s advocated for unless it involves infidelity. That’s the only exception for divorce within the Bible. And it’s why. Because this person violated the relationship in the first place. So that is the exemption for it. So, you know, I’m looking at all these different aspects and I’m like, this is a relationship book. You know, like in a not in a cheesy way, but it’s it’s a really good way of seeing how you see people, how you treat people. And I take a lot from that.

[00:19:55] Cody Cook: Well, and what you said too, about Jesus being okay with doubts, sort of following along the fatherhood analogy, you know, being a dad, it’s one of those things sometimes your kids won’t understand why you’re doing something. You will eventually. You don’t get it now. You just you just have to go along with it. Well, and you talk in the book too about just change gears a little bit. Of course, not having the emotional security of a father, but also not having the physical security of stable housing. And I think that one way that middle class people sometimes reassure themselves is to sort of think of people in homeless shelters as just the victims of their own poor judgment, or maybe as mentally ill and therefore not so easy to help. There’s just nothing we can do about it, you know? Yeah. And and you talked about your own mothers, um, your mother’s own fears for her children’s safety when living in a homeless shelter. And you also mentioned this statistic that was really interesting that 6% of married households live in poverty, while 30% of single-parent families live in poverty. Most of those single mothers and these data points would tend to suggest that the narrative that that poverty can be avoided with good decision making does actually have some validity to it. So, I mean, is that your own view? And if it is, um, does how does Grace kind of come in to play a part in how we perceive those struggling in poverty?

[00:21:14] Adam Coleman: Yeah. So I try to be as open, honest when it comes to this topic, especially when we talk about single mothers, because obviously my mother’s a single mother. But if I was to have a conversation with my mom, she would say that how she approached family planning wasn’t the best idea. Right. But my mother was 20 years old when she had my sister, 24 when she had me. And she’s relatively young. My mother has her own story, which I don’t tell publicly. So it’s not, you know, my mother came from certain circumstances herself. But at the end of the day, you’re an adult and you make the choices that you make. If you make a bad choice, you have to deal with the consequences of bad choices. But I believe that we don’t just discard people because they made a bad choice. We allow for people to repent, or we tell people the best way we can. But at the end of the day, there’s still people. And that single mother, my mother had children and we ran across people who helped us. I believe I detailed in the book how we were homeless, and this lady had a room in her trailer and let us stay there. Um, I believe it was like two months. Uh, my timeline was a little bit shaky because it was a long time ago, but it was like a couple of months that we stayed there. And my mother didn’t know her, but she had met her.

[00:22:31] Adam Coleman: I think my mother was looking for some sort of assistance and the lady overheard her. I believe that’s the story. And she offered that room, and that’s where we stayed at. So, I mean, there have been there have been people who’ve entered my life from adulthood, childhood who helped us and didn’t want anything for it. They just wanted to help somebody who was in need. So I do think it’s important that we we don’t want to reward bad behavior. Right? But at the end of the day, when children are created, sometimes people just need help, you know? And my mother, even the times that we were homeless, my mother always had a job, you know, so it’s not like my mother was a bomb or anything like that. My mom was a full time employee. Certain things happened and we became homeless and we had to figure it out. Or she was scammed out of her, out of her deposit money. That was all she had. And so we had no place to go but a homeless shelter. Yeah. I mean, this is the reality of things sometimes is that even people who are gainfully employed end up in temporary, unfortunate circumstances. Um, so I do think it’s important that we have some empathy for people who are who are in these situations. But I do think it’s important that we don’t we don’t celebrate bad choices. I would not wish for any woman to go through with my mother went through.

[00:23:56] Adam Coleman: It was rough for my mother, and she had a lot of pressure on her, and it took me a long time to, you know, especially when you become an adult and become a parent, you to understand your parents a little bit better. Because when I’m a kid, I’m like, oh, why is she like that? Why is she so high strung? Oh, I get it now. Like, she has to do everything on her own and she’s working long hours. She’s coming home eating clean up, and she’s just like, snapping, right? She’s just wound up tight. And I get it. Doesn’t mean it’s right, but I at least understand I’m empathetic. So I do think it’s important that we have some empathy when it comes to people in this situation. But we shouldn’t make people like my mother as being the superheroes, because it’s a failing position to be in. No matter how hard you work as a single mother, you can’t be in two places at once and something’s going to be sacrificed. Either you have to work long hours so you can pay the bills, but then you neglect your kids when they need stuff, or if they’re going through something or to protect them. Or you do the inverse. And in the inverse, you’re probably on government assistance and you’re always around your kids. So like, it’s kind of, uh, you know, which one, which one you’re going to choose. It’s a failing position for any person to be in. Yeah.

[00:25:10] Cody Cook: Well, and I think from, from a Christian perspective, you know, we ought to have grace even. I mean, because obviously we have this sort of our own sense of that we have failed and we’ve been shown grace that we didn’t deserve. And so we, as Paul says, I’m a debtor. I owe. I owe other people grace because of the grace that’s been shown me. But but I think, you know, another part of this kind of remember is because we all screw up. I think we can kind of look at the role that, you know, wealth or, you know, I know this has become one of those words, privilege, uh, kind of plays. Right? Because like if, um, if you’re poor and you get picked up for, for drugs, it’s different than if your dad knows plays golf with golf with the judge. Right. And it’s like, it’s just like one of those. Or if you, um, you know, you know, get a serious illness and you, you have family members who have some money or you have a mother can get a mortgage on her house, or you have a church network to support you or something. It’s very different if you don’t have that stuff. And I think that’s just kind of the, you know, that’s maybe kind of the unfortunate reality. And, you know, that’s the great thing about living in a, in a free society is that all of us are doing a lot better than we would have done without it. We also have to be sort of aware of the fact that we all make mistakes. They don’t all affect us the same way. And so it’s easy to kind of look down on people who don’t have a lot of room to make mistakes when we do, you know. Yeah.

[00:26:32] Adam Coleman: I agree with you.

[00:26:34] Cody Cook: Now, there is, of course, the sort of the cyclical nature to poverty and to fatherlessness that is difficult to break. And, um, and I think you might remember if you used this analogy in the book, I feel like you did, but that sort of like the fish of all the fish knows is water. You know, it’s kind of hard for them to sort of see outside of that. And so, so you grow up in an environment. But even just to put it simply, you just there’s no father there. How do you, you know, as a parent yourself, how did you break that cycle? What made you sort of say, like, I don’t really have any models for how to do this, but I know it’s important and I want to do it because it seems like a lot of people don’t.

[00:27:10] Adam Coleman: Well, when my son was born, I just knew that I didn’t want to be my father. I knew what it. I knew what it felt like to not know if your father cared about you. He was interested in you. You didn’t hear from him on your birthday or anything like that. Like I know what it’s like to have a father who just doesn’t love you, and I can. I can say that. Whereas, like, maybe years ago, you know, I wouldn’t definitively say that, but I can say that confidently, because I’m a father and I know what loving a child looks like, and it doesn’t mean that you get it right 100% of the time. But it’s the effort. That’s how you can tell someone, someone who’s a good parent and someone who isn’t a person who’s a good parent cares that they’re a good parent, right? They care if they’re doing it right. They care if they mess up. Right. There’s that effort behind it. So even if you miss a game. But you know what? Your kids aren’t going to hold it against you, because I see the effort that you put in all the time. Um, and even if you’re in a situation where you’re far away from your kids, you can still show some effort. Like there are plenty of dads who live far away from their kids, but they say this summer you’re staying with me, right? They put an effort in. They want a relationship with their kids.

[00:28:27] Adam Coleman: And even in a bad circumstance like that. So for me, that was the first thing. I just didn’t want to be my father because I didn’t want my son to go through what I went through. Asking those questions. So, and keep in mind, I say this very candidly, like I wasn’t a man when I had my son. Like I was very unsure about myself and if I’m doing this right or anything. But I made a lot of sacrifices and I took risks. Not for me, but for my son. And my son became a purpose for me. Like, I need to do these things so that I can take care of my son. I need to do these things so that my son is good. And I guess as far as a model, I just tried to become the father that I thought I would have wanted as a kid, and especially like when my son was around two and I talk a bit about spanking within the book, but like when my son was around, he was around two years old. I realized that I didn’t I didn’t like my son, I didn’t like that it didn’t feel good to me. And I realized I was only doing it because that’s what was done to me. As my son got older, there were things about him that reminded me of the reminded me of of myself within him. And I decided I’m not going to do it anymore.

[00:29:45] Adam Coleman: Like I didn’t tell him, but I just said, I’m just not going to. I’m not going to put my hands on him anymore. Instead, I’m going to talk to him because I remember when I was a kid, like when I got hit, I felt like it was unnecessary because I already felt bad. Um, and now you’re hitting me. I would have much more liked it if you talked to me, like scold me. Fine. But like, I just want you to, like, talk to me. At least find out, like why I did that. Maybe there was something going on or I don’t know, but I always felt like I want someone to take the time to talk to me or explain to me what I did wrong, or explain to me how I can not do it again. And so that’s what I, I made a conscious choice to to do that, but a lot of it as far as like becoming a better parent, was one just trying to put some effort in and two, thinking about when I was a kid, what I would have wanted because my son especially reminded me a lot of myself when I was a kid. And he looks like me and he has a lot of my mannerisms. So like, there’s there’s a lot about him that is just very similar to when I was a kid. So I just tried to become the father that I would have wanted, essentially.

[00:30:56] Cody Cook: Yeah. No, that’s really good. I did I did have some questions about spanking that I was going to say for the end, but maybe while we’re on it, we’ll just kind of do something real quick on that. Sure. So, you know, a lot of libertarians, I think, would apply the non-aggression principle, which is kind of our kind of our big starting point to parenting. Right. And we’d say that, you know, it’s always wrong to use force against to initiate force against anyone. And so it also be wrong to initiate force against children. And but as parents, I mean, even parents who don’t spank, we do force things on our kids for their good that they might not want. So, you know, bedtimes, medical interventions, timeouts, whatever. And so I’d imagine there’s probably a parent who’s listening, who’s thinking, well, you know, I’ve spanked my kids, but when when they kept disobeying and running into the road or whatever, but and I’d rather they be alive, you know, with a temporarily sore butt. And so somebody who says, well, sometimes that might those physical interventions may be necessary. Um, do you feel like the case you make is not that it’s you use it, but use it sparingly or use it, but make sure that the you know, you’re not mad when you do it or use it, but, um, uh, you know, make sure that the expectations are set ahead of time. I think it sounds like you’re saying just don’t do it at all. Is that a is that a fair assessment?

[00:32:11] Adam Coleman: Yeah. And even and and I understand you’re, you’re echoing what other people say.

[00:32:16] Cody Cook: Yeah. Yeah. And I’m not necessarily making a case against what you’re saying. I’m just curious to hear what you’d say.

[00:32:21] Adam Coleman: Yeah. And I’ve and the reason I say that is because I’ve heard people say, well, if they run across the street, that kind of example. Right. But that’s not the 365 days of the week. Your child’s running into the middle of the street because if they are, there’s a bigger problem, right? So I am talking about how do you discipline your child. And actually, if it’s alright with you, this is a Christian podcast and I can I go on a mini rant about something that that a lot of Christians say and I’ve heard. So spare the rod, spoil the child, right? This to me Reads as I see this one line in Scripture, and I’m going to interpret it the way that I want to interpret it. And then one generation tells the next generation. The next generation. Next generation, and so on. Why does everyone interpret the rod as being a physical rod that you hit a child when the entire context of that, that that portion of the Bible is talking about discipline, right. It’s going in a different way. It’s not talking about here’s how you hit them, here’s when you hit them. It’s not talking about anything physical. It’s talking about you don’t want to raise a child that you’ll hate. Right. It’s telling you here’s why you want to teach them. And this is where we break down the word discipline, discipleship to teach. So you have to ask yourself, what is hitting your child? Teach them.

[00:33:49] Adam Coleman: If your child is not doing their homework at school and they come home. I’m sorry if they’re not doing their homework. You know, and they’re coming home and they’re skipping their homework to go to school. They’re getting a bad grade because they’re not doing their homework. And you find out and you hit them. They cry. They go to bed. Then the next day, when that child wakes up, what do you think that child learned? And the person was like, oh, they learned to just do their homework because it’s their responsibility to do their homework. But you didn’t ask, why aren’t you doing your homework? Maybe they feel insecure, or maybe they don’t know the work, maybe that they’re having trouble with in that class. Maybe they’re having trouble with the teacher. Like you have no idea. You just result into hitting and you haven’t actually tried to talk to the child. And this is this is the downfall of trying to just hit when your child does something wrong. And I want to remind adults that your children are not adults. Children have underdeveloped brains. Your brain isn’t fully developed about the age of 25. That’s why you have to tell your kids over and over and over, things your children can’t see around the corner. Which is why to us it’s like, why did you do that? That was you can foreshadow that. You’re going to get caught, you’re going to get in trouble.

[00:35:05] Adam Coleman: They can’t see that. They literally can’t see that. So their brains aren’t fully developed. They’re not emotionally developed. They don’t know how to express themselves 100% of the time, they’re going to do things that seem irrational to us as adults. But we have to remember, when we were kids, we did things that seemed irrational, and you have to pull it out of them because they don’t know how to express themselves. And maybe, just maybe, your kid doesn’t know how to do math, right? And he’s struggling and he’s looking at all the other kids and they’re not struggling. And he feels defeated, but he feels embarrassed to say something to anybody. So you have to pull that out of him. And you know what? That takes work. It takes effort. But I can beat the shit out of my kid for five minutes. They’ll cry and go to bed, and maybe tomorrow he will do his homework because he’s scared. So what you taught them is to be scared to do this under duress. Otherwise I’m going to get hit. And is that the lesson that we want to teach? So ultimately. And I’ll bring it one back to the Christianity aspect. My issue with spare the rod, spoil the child is that it neglects every other description of love within the Bible or the Old Testament and New Testament, but especially the New Testament. And because we have Jesus Christ as a model, do we think that Jesus Christ would be like, yes, hit your child? Do we think that at all about Jesus Christ? Like, to me I’m like, well, of course not.

[00:36:32] Adam Coleman: That doesn’t sound right. It sounds like we would lean on grace, especially for a child. God has destroyed cities. Why? Because they hurt children. So it sounds like there’s a special place in the heart of God for children. But yet he’s saying, hey, take that rod and beat the shit out of your kid. Like, does that does that square up to hit a child because they didn’t do something right. Well guess what? We all do something wrong. Isn’t the whole point that we’re sinners? We have fully developed brains and we still mess up. So why aren’t we giving grace to our children when they mess up? And that’s the part where I feel like the Christian aspect uses that one line and just calls it a day. That’s it. Oh, spare the rod. Spoil the child. Cool. I get to hit him with a belt with whatever I want. And then I get the milquetoast Christians who say, well, you just don’t do it out of anger. Now, let me so explain to me how, in an emotional circumstance where you’re upset because your child didn’t do his homework, now you’re able to be so measured that you hit them without anger? Explain that to me how well that’s going to work out for you.

[00:37:43] Adam Coleman: Or. Well, you just don’t want to hurt them. Then what’s the point of hitting them? Well it’s spanking. Well, it’s spanking different than hitting because the last time I checked. The reason why you’re doing it is because it hurts them, and it gets their attention so that they don’t do it again. That’s what you’re hoping for. So we end up playing these these different games as far as when we can hit them, how we can hit them so we don’t feel like bad people. Because if we remove ourselves from the circumstance and we’re looking at it, I am 2 to 3 times, maybe four times as big as my child, and I am hitting them regardless of force. I’m hitting them to the point where it hurts them and they’re crying. So you’re hitting a defenseless child who has no options. They don’t have a job. They don’t have a car that they can get in and leave you because you’re hurting them. They have to deal with it, and then they have to go to bed and see you the next day. And they’re not allowed to talk about it. They’re not allowed to complain to you about being hit, that they don’t like it. And then what do you say to them? Well, I was hit as a kid. Look how I turned out. Well, yeah. Look how you turned out. Now you’re hitting your kid, and you’re putting through the same thing that you didn’t like.

[00:38:55] Adam Coleman: So I do think I really don’t like when. And I didn’t dive into the Christian. Spare the rod, spoil the child as much in this book. But that is a pet peeve of mine when we just take that one line as our entire modus operandi when it comes to disciplining our children, negating the entire discipline part. Because that’s not actually discipline. You’re supposed to teach your child something, which means that you have to talk to them. But whatever you do, you’re teaching them something. So are you teaching them to be afraid of you, or are you teaching them how to speak to you when they’re having struggles? Because we all have struggles. Your child is doing that for a reason. So always ask the question why? Rather than just reacting and thinking, oh, they’re disrespecting me. Or I told them to do it and they chose not to do it. I was like, no. Children aren’t necessarily malicious, so why don’t you ask the question? Right. Pull it out of them because it’s going to be hard to pull it out of them. You have to give them grace. This is where I go back to the Bible. Jesus Christ gave grown adults fully developed brains grace consistently, even when they made mistakes. The people who sinned the most gave them ultimate grace. And we can’t even do that for innocent children. So that’s my that’s my rant.

[00:40:17] Cody Cook: All right. Well, very thoughtful and impassioned case. So thank you.

[00:40:22] Adam Coleman: No problem.

[00:40:24] Cody Cook: Well, I’ll shift gears again. All this stuff is kind of connected. Of course. It’s all part of the book, but there’s just a lot to kind of cover. And I want to go over, you know, at least superficially, some of the stuff that’s there. So, you know, in light of your experiences, I think, um, you know, you’d be forgiven by many for feeling like a victim. And you certainly are honest about your feelings about, you know, being failed by people around you who should have, you know, felt a sense of responsibility for your welfare. But your previous book, “Black Victim to Black Victor”, charts a different path forward. And so this is a different book. Um, but I was kind of curious to sort of see how these books relate to each other, because in this book, I mean, there’s a there’s a lot of kind of, you know, dark and negative stuff and, and, you know, so how do you kind of work through that to kind of getting to a place where you sort of take responsibility for things that aren’t even necessarily your fault?

[00:41:15] Adam Coleman: Yeah. So the, the it’s funny because it took me four years to write this book. Um, and it was the most obvious book for me to write, to go from black victim to black victor to, to, uh, the children we left behind because the, the most impactful parts of Black victim Black Victor are talking about one of my childhood, but like family, because I’m trying to make the argument that this is actually the biggest issue facing black Americans at a time where everyone’s saying that racism is the biggest issue. And, you know, we all have to be scared of cops shooting us. Um, even though most of us aren’t criminals. So, um, so it’s it was taking that that moment to answer that question as far as how family separation is the biggest issue facing black Americans. But later in the book, I’m saying, actually, it’s the biggest issue facing all Americans. Um, so this book actually really expands on that element where I really dive into my story. So you you truly understand why I’m saying what I’m saying, how it really is actually the biggest issue facing facing all of us. But to answer your question, the books are connected in that particular way. If you were to read the Left Behind and see all the things that I went through, but then go to black Victim, Black Victor, you would see how, yes, there were times that I felt like a victim.

[00:42:37] Adam Coleman: Sometimes I victimized myself dealing with depression, you know, lots of self doubt affirming that I’m not capable of doing these things and how I change my mindset and really started my life started to take off because I started to move forward. I started working on myself, I started forgiving, I started accepting, you know, there are multiple like big steps that happen in my life. One of those steps was when I was having panic attacks at my old job, and I started developing agoraphobia, and I was like, I need to go get help because now I’m scared to leave my house. So I started going to a therapist, and from day one, everything just started coming out. And I never talked about these things. And I, I think for like almost two months I went three times a week, um, in every session I was just bawling, crying, because I had so many things that I just I kept it to myself. I didn’t tell anybody. I just and it was holding me back. It was like this invisible weight that I didn’t realize I was wearing. I just thought I was having trouble at work. I was like, no, there’s there’s a route for all of this stuff. So, like, really working on myself.

[00:43:51] Adam Coleman: That’s why I’m an advocate for therapy. Like. But you need to have a good therapist to know what a good therapist looks like. But when you have a good therapist, you can really work through things. Um, and you learn to accept that going through therapy helped me to accept my mom for who she is. Except that my father is not involved in my life, and it’s not my fault. Like, I had to learn to accept these things. And over time, I had to learn to forgive. And once again, go, go back to Christianity. Christianity talks all the time about forgiveness, and it’s necessary for so many different reasons. But it’s to let go of that hatred, let go of the animosity that you have for someone else. Because I’m just as imperfect, you know. So as much as I want to say something about my father or my mother, I wasn’t always the best son, you know. I made mistakes even in my adult years. And I, I’m trying to show grace to everyone. Everyone involved. Which is why writing either of these books, especially the children left behind. I’m not angry when I’m writing it. Um. I’ve resolved all these things. These things aren’t bothering me. I’m not angry at my mom, my father or anybody. So it was actually difficult for me to write it and be emotional, which I write better if I’m emotional because I had resolved all these things.

[00:45:10] Adam Coleman: So I had to, like, dredge up old feelings and stuff like that. But to kind of write about it in an emotional way. But I’m, I feel like I’m not heavy. It’s not something that weighs on me at all. Being open and honest and and clear and even for my mother to, to read this book, you know, there are things that she read that she didn’t know about or and that was painful for her, but it opened up that honesty while it temporarily brought her pain. It opened up for us to have a better relationship, and we have more communication now because of it. And I think about her more and her health and things that are going on. So this is what happens when you really, truly start to work on yourself and you stop seeing yourself as a victim, and things aren’t always going to go your way. God doesn’t happen on your timeline, right? Life doesn’t happen on your timeline. Things that you expect are going to happen. They’re just not. And sometimes the things that you thought was going to happen down the line, oh, it’s coming up on you right now. I’ll make a choice. Right. You have no control over these things. The only thing you can do is respond to it well enough and do the best that you can.

[00:46:24] Adam Coleman: And I believe that if you trust your instinct. And the last thing I know, we’ve been talking for a bit, but the last thing I’ll say is the thing that revolutionized it for me was when I got over my social anxiety. I started doing solo traveling and I didn’t realize how bad my social anxiety was until it was gone or nearly gone. I would say twice because I was solo traveling in countries abroad where everything is new and different, and I had to listen to my instincts for the first time. Whereas before I didn’t trust my instincts and I realized these instincts are God given. Every time I listen to my instinct, things worked out, and it was like a guide that was telling me, go to this restaurant, go down this way, talk to this person, stay away from this person. Like every time I felt that in my soul, like things worked out. Every time I was weary and and didn’t feel right around someone, I left. Like I just started listening to my instincts. And that’s been. That’s been the skill that I’ve been applying for, uh, Applying in my life moving forward is that I’m trying to trust my instincts and go towards people and stay away from people.

[00:47:41] Cody Cook: And I like what you. I think you use the words um, like response. And I think sometimes when we think about responsibility, it has these sort of connotations of this is your fault or this is your obligation, or, you know, this is something it’s you have authority over. But that kind of idea of responding to something, right, is I think, is I think maybe the most helpful way to think about responsibility. It’s you may be dealing with something that’s not your fault, but you still have a responsibility as far as how you choose to respond to it. So yeah, I think that’s good. Well, and that conversation sort of seems to be leading us into a place that seems very, um, you know, socially conservative. And you have a portrait of what looks like Thomas Sowell behind you, the conservative economist. Is that Okay. And so I’d just be curious in light of the discourse, I like people who who are, um, contrarians who don’t necessarily always do it, do it. Do people expect them to do? And so, you know, in light of the chorus around discourse, around, um, you know, black American politics where it’s like you can either be on the left or you can be like Uncle Ruckus or Uncle Tom, if that refers to. All right. Yeah. Um, do you consider yourself a, like a black conservative, or do you find the dichotomy to be kind of a simplistic or unhelpful one?

[00:49:02] Adam Coleman: I think it’s simplistic, but I, I understand why people use it. People like labels. If you go on any of my socials, I never call myself conservative. I never call myself black conservative. I never call myself a Republican. I don’t do any of that stuff. The only thing I’ve ever said, identity wise, uh, is that I’m an independent. Um, I’ve voted for both parties in my life. Um, I’d be open to voting for anyone if I believe they’ll do the things that I support. But I’m also not a loyalist. I was a Democrat at one point, and I realized that sometimes associated and this is not for everybody, but whether it’s political parties or any sort of group association, sometimes what happens is you possess that group identity and then you start doing things. Sometimes you’re fine with it, but then sometimes you start doing things that go against how you actually feel, and it goes against your principles and your morals. So, you know, I’ve talked about abortion and my, my ex having an abortion and telling her, you know, because you’re told as a, as a man it’s not your say. So just support whatever she wants to do. And it’s her choice. And having the words, it’s up to you what you want to do. Saying that to a woman who just found out she’s pregnant, tells her you don’t want this child. And I thought I was being a good Democrat by saying these things, right.

[00:50:34] Adam Coleman: But I can’t stop her once she makes the choice. And so you’re supposed to support her killing your child. So it’s this. This weird thing that you feel shame for. And occasionally I feel some shame about it. And, uh, you know, ask God for forgiveness on it. But it’s it’s that type of thing where I didn’t feel good about this. I didn’t feel good about it from the beginning. Yet I was part of it. I was part of the act. I took her there. I waited till she was done. She came outside like I was part of it. And I couldn’t stop her 100% if she wanted to do it, no matter what. But I shouldn’t have been the accomplice, you know. But I only did it because that’s. That’s what a Democrat’s supposed to do, right? It’s that kind of thing where I don’t want to fall into these group association traps. Especially when it comes to political association, because then you start bending stuff because you don’t want to see these people as bad. Well, I mean, they’re mostly good. I can see how someone might think that, but actually they mean that you should start bending yourself and to the point where you’re unrecognizable. Um, the only group association I, I truly want to be part of is a follower of Christ. That’s that’s basically it. I’m. I am racially black. Uh, but I am not politically black.

[00:51:58] Cody Cook: Yeah, I was I was gonna say whatever both of those terms mean. Yeah. Well, and I mean, you know, coming from kind of a libertarian perspective, and I would say a lot of times, you know, politics is kind of the the art of legitimizing violence, right? I mean, it’s just, you know, well, you know, normally this would be bad if somebody did it, but because we’re, you know, we’re a political party and the government’s doing it and we’re voting for it. That makes it okay. Yeah. Um, so as we’re getting maybe kind of close to the hour here, there’s a couple places we could end. But maybe what I’m most interested in is maybe something a little bit, a little bit practical, because we talked about the gray stuff a lot, which is good. I thought about ending there, but let’s let’s end on this. Maybe. What would you say to, um, young men and women who are maybe at risk of becoming parents because they’re sexually active? Um, and they’re really just kind of focused on this relationship or this sort of pleasure they’re getting out of it, or, you know, the fun of it. And their brains aren’t fully formed yet. And they’re not they’re not necessarily, uh, thinking responsibly. What is it that you want, maybe some of those young people who might be listening to know?

[00:53:03] Adam Coleman: Well, you have to ask yourself, are you using that person as someone who fulfills you, or is this someone you just want to be with? And I will once again use myself for many years. That girl who likes me, ah, fulfilled me. That means I’m valuable. Invaluable. But then she breaks up with me. I am worthless, right? And a lot of people chase that external validation. And so you have to ask yourself, are you just chasing some sort of validation that you’re you’re, uh, you’re worthy, or is that what you’re chasing? Um, or are you thinking with your head that this is someone who actually treats me with respect? This is someone who I want to spend my future with, um, that I would like to have children with. Like, are you thinking in those terms? And I would say for many years. And I don’t think it’s completely uncommon for, for some young people, they’re just just moving emotionally. They’re cute. I like them, you know, and they just start doing stuff. And then one day they’re pregnant, like, so I want I want people to family plan. Um, and while I didn’t do that, a lot of that was because that’s not how I was raised, but that’s where my responsibility is with ending that cycle where I tell my son, don’t chase women. I tell my son, work on yourself. Build yourself up.

[00:54:32] Adam Coleman: The women will come that you are valuable with or without a woman. And that is a healthy space to be in. Because if you come across a woman who is not worthy of your time and interest, then you won’t waste your time and interest with her and you won’t mess up and get her pregnant. And now you didn’t vet her to see if she’d be a good mother. But guess what? She is a mother and she’s attached to you for the rest of your life. So I’ve taught my son to follow the right order, get married, then have children to watch out for this. You know, it’s a good example. I think it brings. It tends to ring true, but there’s definitely follow-up questions. What’s her relationship with her father? Because if her relationship with her father is terrible and she hates her father, you won’t fare better. That’s that’s the likely outcome, is that you won’t feel better unless she is actually worked on those things, which some women do, but many don’t. And the same goes for women. If you come across a guy who has a terrible relationship with his mother, oh, you’re not going to fare better. Like he that guy tends to be a player anyways. He doesn’t respect women because he doesn’t respect his mother. So you have to you start. I think it’s important that we ask people about their childhoods, um, because that is the that’s the foundation as to what they are as, as an adult.

[00:56:04] Adam Coleman: That’s a starting point. And then from there you can ask follow-up questions to see like, okay, they may have come from that circumstance, but what have they done in between to work on those things? But I tend to find that most people accept that they accept the premise that the models of adults that raised them or didn’t raise them is to be expected from every other man or woman that they encounter in a relationship. Um, so, you know, I would tell a young person to just be very mindful because that person you’re having sex with, you have to ask yourself, do you want. Can you see this person being the mother or father of your child? If you don’t, then you probably wouldn’t want to marry them. Then what’s the point? Like, don’t have sex with them. Um, so you have to ask yourself that question. Now, if you don’t want to have children, you don’t want to get married or just be incredibly safe. But I still think it’s important that you don’t just recklessly have sex with people who, even if you don’t want children or anything like that, you still want someone who respects you, who’s polite to you, and things of that nature.

[00:57:16] Cody Cook: Gotcha. Well, Adam B Coleman, where can people find you and your books? The children we left behind. And, uh, is it “From Black Victim to Black Victor”, or is it from black victim to vector?

[00:57:26] Adam Coleman: Uh, no.

[00:57:27] Cody Cook: From the black victim to black vector and the children we left behind. Where can people find these books and where can they find you?

[00:57:33] Adam Coleman: The books are available at their favorite retailer, Amazon. Uh, they can actually purchase it on, um. Net. You can purchase both books. Uh, you can purchase them as a bundle on. Net, I have a Substack. adamcoleman.com where you can follow my appearances. Uh, my thoughts. I do some articles on there as well. If I write for the New York Post or any other publication I put up on there. Follow and Twitter. I’m the most active on Twitter at wrong underscore speak.

[00:58:04] Cody Cook: Yeah, and I will I will agree you’re a great person to follow on Twitter. All right. Well thank you everybody for listening. Thank you, Adam, for being here. And, uh, we’ll talk to you all next week.

[00:58:16] Voiceover: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Libertarian Christian Podcast. If you liked today’s episode, we encourage you to rate us on Apple Podcasts to help expand our audience. If you want to reach out to us, email us at podcast@libertarianchristians.com. You can also reach us at @LCIOfficial on Twitter. And of course we are on Facebook and have an active group. You are welcome to join. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time.

[00:58:40] Voiceover: The Libertarian Christian Podcast is a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute, a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit. If you’d like to find out more about LCI, visit us on the web at libertarianchristians.com. The voiceovers are by Matt Bellis and Kathryn Williams. As of episode 115, our audio production is provided by Podsworth Media. Check them out at podsworthmedia.com.

LCI uses automated transcripts from various sources. If you see a significant error, please let us know.