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	<title>Comments on: The Proper Origin of Rights</title>
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	<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/</link>
	<description>The State is not the Kingdom of God.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 16:05:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-4723</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 01:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-4723</guid>
		<description> To Campandrew119, the Eastern Orthodox( EO) Church uses( has always used) the LLX and the text reads &quot;kill&quot; and not &quot;murder&quot;.  The EO&#039;s theology has always been that all killing is sin.  Even in certain cases where the Church exercises economy like self-defense and repelling invaders from national borders, killing is considered a sin and can incur harsh penalty.  That is to say the Eastern Orthodox have no concept of &quot;justified&quot; killing like in the West.  When man kills man he is usurping that which belongs to God alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> To Campandrew119, the Eastern Orthodox( EO) Church uses( has always used) the LLX and the text reads &#8220;kill&#8221; and not &#8220;murder&#8221;.  The EO&#8217;s theology has always been that all killing is sin.  Even in certain cases where the Church exercises economy like self-defense and repelling invaders from national borders, killing is considered a sin and can incur harsh penalty.  That is to say the Eastern Orthodox have no concept of &#8220;justified&#8221; killing like in the West.  When man kills man he is usurping that which belongs to God alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman Horn</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-4720</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman Horn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 21:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-4720</guid>
		<description>It is a difficult subject for sure, Campandrew119. Laurence Vance has an interesting article on whether it ought to be translated as &quot;kill&quot; or &quot;murder&quot; on LewRockwell.com from a few years ago: http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance74.html, I hope that helps a little.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a difficult subject for sure, Campandrew119. Laurence Vance has an interesting article on whether it ought to be translated as &#8220;kill&#8221; or &#8220;murder&#8221; on LewRockwell.com from a few years ago: <a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance74.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance74.html</a>, I hope that helps a little.</p>
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		<title>By: Campandrew119</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-4719</link>
		<dc:creator>Campandrew119</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 21:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-4719</guid>
		<description>To Jaired, or anyone following his thread...It&#039;s my understanding of Hebrew that the Commandment that&#039;s often written as &#039;Thou shalt not kill&#039;...means, or translates to mean...Thou shalt not murder...but does not carry on to mean that self defense is not reconcilable.  Self defense is morally justifiable in God&#039;s eyes.  I would even consider it a right...or an obligation. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Jaired, or anyone following his thread&#8230;It&#8217;s my understanding of Hebrew that the Commandment that&#8217;s often written as &#8216;Thou shalt not kill&#8217;&#8230;means, or translates to mean&#8230;Thou shalt not murder&#8230;but does not carry on to mean that self defense is not reconcilable.  Self defense is morally justifiable in God&#8217;s eyes.  I would even consider it a right&#8230;or an obligation. </p>
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		<title>By: L Kaz</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-4318</link>
		<dc:creator>L Kaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 17:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-4318</guid>
		<description>



Very well said - particularly cutting through the humanistic viewpoints
and straight to the heart of what a Disciple of Jesus Christ must adhere to.


It really is all about accountability - dying to self and living to
Christ.


I would like to add that the combining of Old Covenant and New Covenant
is a bit confusng to me. 


The author writes:


 Three examples of interpersonal
moral constraints laid out by God in the Bible are “thou shalt not kill,” “thou
shalt not steal,” and “love thy neighbor as thyself.” 


Remember when Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law (Old
Covenant) but to fulfill it (New Covenant)? [Mt. 5:17]


In other words the 10 commandments, the old sacrificial system, et al
(Old Covenant) was superseded by the New Covenant as stated by Jesus in Mt
22:36-40:


36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 


37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your
heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and
great commandment.


39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


This sums up what the law now entails (New Covenant) and it can only be
fulfilled by being born again of the Spirit of God -  through Jesus Christ who came to fulfill the
law now written on our hearts and not on tablets of stone.


I guess what I am trying to point out is that there is no need to
&quot;mix&quot; old and new - the new encompasses all we have to know regarding
our reposnsibility in Christ. 
Not disregarding the old - the Scriptures tell us
much is to be learned from the old: For whatever things were written before
were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the
Scriptures might have hope. [Romans 15:4]







</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well said &#8211; particularly cutting through the humanistic viewpoints<br />
and straight to the heart of what a Disciple of Jesus Christ must adhere to.</p>
<p>It really is all about accountability &#8211; dying to self and living to<br />
Christ.</p>
<p>I would like to add that the combining of Old Covenant and New Covenant<br />
is a bit confusng to me. </p>
<p>The author writes:</p>
<p> Three examples of interpersonal<br />
moral constraints laid out by God in the Bible are “thou shalt not kill,” “thou<br />
shalt not steal,” and “love thy neighbor as thyself.” </p>
<p>Remember when Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law (Old<br />
Covenant) but to fulfill it (New Covenant)? [Mt. 5:17]</p>
<p>In other words the 10 commandments, the old sacrificial system, et al<br />
(Old Covenant) was superseded by the New Covenant as stated by Jesus in Mt<br />
22:36-40:</p>
<p>36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” </p>
<p>37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your<br />
heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and<br />
great commandment.</p>
<p>39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’<br />
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”</p>
<p>This sums up what the law now entails (New Covenant) and it can only be<br />
fulfilled by being born again of the Spirit of God -  through Jesus Christ who came to fulfill the<br />
law now written on our hearts and not on tablets of stone.</p>
<p>I guess what I am trying to point out is that there is no need to<br />
&#8220;mix&#8221; old and new &#8211; the new encompasses all we have to know regarding<br />
our reposnsibility in Christ.<br />
Not disregarding the old &#8211; the Scriptures tell us<br />
much is to be learned from the old: For whatever things were written before<br />
were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the<br />
Scriptures might have hope. [Romans 15:4]</p>
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		<title>By: Mtanous</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-4161</link>
		<dc:creator>Mtanous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 07:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-4161</guid>
		<description>As a Christian libertarian myself, I disagree with only one point here.  I think it is fully consistent to arrive upon such an ethical system from a study of nature, as the natural world is merely another revelation from God (The heavens declare the glory of God, etc.).

In fact, while Scripture is the easiest way to determine what defines moral interpersonal relations, I think that deriving the non-aggression principle from self-ownership (the autonomy that God has given us, free from the will of other humans) is a perfectly valid way to derive this.  In fact, it was my attempts at understanding the principles behind self-ownership that led me to believe that it was an autonomy delegated by God.

God does not &quot;own&quot; humans in the same way that I own my computer and can do whatever I wish to it.  We do not have to obey God&#039;s commands - although there are consequences for not doing so, obviously.  The difference is, that should we choose to do so, we can disobey the Divine Law and temporarily disregard the consequences (although we eventually have to face them).  In this sense, God has given us autonomy of action and thought, and we truly do &quot;own&quot; our selves, in a sense.

God&#039;s laws regarding interpersonal relationships (thou shalt not kill, etc.) then can be derived from a principle of self-ownership, but the leap that was not made by the classical liberal philosophers (possibly because at that time in Europe, it was felt to be so obvious as to not require any explanation) was that this ownership is itself derived from God.  

In my view, this was explicitly stated in the Bible for those that chose not to do philosophizing about it, and just to make it impossible to justify immoral actions such as murder and theft while accepting the supremacy of God.  Because without an actual Law defining what is required, faith is meaningless - just as the fact that Satan knows God exists does not change him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a Christian libertarian myself, I disagree with only one point here.  I think it is fully consistent to arrive upon such an ethical system from a study of nature, as the natural world is merely another revelation from God (The heavens declare the glory of God, etc.).</p>
<p>In fact, while Scripture is the easiest way to determine what defines moral interpersonal relations, I think that deriving the non-aggression principle from self-ownership (the autonomy that God has given us, free from the will of other humans) is a perfectly valid way to derive this.  In fact, it was my attempts at understanding the principles behind self-ownership that led me to believe that it was an autonomy delegated by God.</p>
<p>God does not &#8220;own&#8221; humans in the same way that I own my computer and can do whatever I wish to it.  We do not have to obey God&#8217;s commands &#8211; although there are consequences for not doing so, obviously.  The difference is, that should we choose to do so, we can disobey the Divine Law and temporarily disregard the consequences (although we eventually have to face them).  In this sense, God has given us autonomy of action and thought, and we truly do &#8220;own&#8221; our selves, in a sense.</p>
<p>God&#8217;s laws regarding interpersonal relationships (thou shalt not kill, etc.) then can be derived from a principle of self-ownership, but the leap that was not made by the classical liberal philosophers (possibly because at that time in Europe, it was felt to be so obvious as to not require any explanation) was that this ownership is itself derived from God.  </p>
<p>In my view, this was explicitly stated in the Bible for those that chose not to do philosophizing about it, and just to make it impossible to justify immoral actions such as murder and theft while accepting the supremacy of God.  Because without an actual Law defining what is required, faith is meaningless &#8211; just as the fact that Satan knows God exists does not change him.</p>
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		<title>By: Children&#8217;s Rights &#8211; A Libertarian Dilemma with a Christian Answer &#124; LibertarianChristians.com</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-4152</link>
		<dc:creator>Children&#8217;s Rights &#8211; A Libertarian Dilemma with a Christian Answer &#124; LibertarianChristians.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-4152</guid>
		<description>[...] on the Origin of the State (60)John Stossel and David Boaz at the SFL International Conference (49)The Proper Origin of Rights (48)Top 10 Books for Christian Libertarians - Christmas 2008 Edition (46)           Jul [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on the Origin of the State (60)John Stossel and David Boaz at the SFL International Conference (49)The Proper Origin of Rights (48)Top 10 Books for Christian Libertarians &#8211; Christmas 2008 Edition (46)           Jul [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Where do those &#8216;unalienable rights&#8217; really come from? &#171; David McElroy</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-4143</link>
		<dc:creator>Where do those &#8216;unalienable rights&#8217; really come from? &#171; David McElroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 19:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-4143</guid>
		<description>[...] come from God, but in specific ways. (For instance, my good friend Doug Douma has argued that our rights are rooted in scripture, although he and I disagree on that point.) There have been various other attempts by Christian [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] come from God, but in specific ways. (For instance, my good friend Doug Douma has argued that our rights are rooted in scripture, although he and I disagree on that point.) There have been various other attempts by Christian [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rights or choices? It might be time to re-frame the debate &#171; David McElroy</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-4116</link>
		<dc:creator>Rights or choices? It might be time to re-frame the debate &#171; David McElroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jun 2011 15:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-4116</guid>
		<description>[...] Douma is a libertarian friend of mine who recently wrote an article asserting that the origin of rights is the Bible &#8212; the Christian New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament, which the Jews call the Tanakh. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Douma is a libertarian friend of mine who recently wrote an article asserting that the origin of rights is the Bible &#8212; the Christian New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament, which the Jews call the Tanakh. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: J Grant</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-3994</link>
		<dc:creator>J Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-3994</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t believe I&#039;m just now reading this.  Very well done.  I am thankful for the small population of libertarian Christians out there who recognize the problems of the secular appeal to &quot;rights&quot;, when such things cannot be justified or grounded.  

My question now is this...how do so many Christian thinkers BELIEVE in the above principles, and then advocate a State which, by definition, violates said principles?  Yes, I&#039;m even applying that to &quot;limited&quot; government (something I find untenable).   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t believe I&#8217;m just now reading this.  Very well done.  I am thankful for the small population of libertarian Christians out there who recognize the problems of the secular appeal to &#8220;rights&#8221;, when such things cannot be justified or grounded.  </p>
<p>My question now is this&#8230;how do so many Christian thinkers BELIEVE in the above principles, and then advocate a State which, by definition, violates said principles?  Yes, I&#8217;m even applying that to &#8220;limited&#8221; government (something I find untenable).   </p>
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		<title>By: Meet Doug Douma &#124; LibertarianChristians.com</title>
		<link>http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-3712</link>
		<dc:creator>Meet Doug Douma &#124; LibertarianChristians.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Dec 2010 02:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianchristians.com/2010/06/07/the-proper-origin-of-rights/#comment-3712</guid>
		<description>[...] to Ban Guns (95)Josephus on the Origin of the State (59)The Libertarian Theology of Freedom (46)The Proper Origin of Rights (44)Top 10 Books for Christian Libertarians - Christmas 2008 Edition (43)           Dec [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to Ban Guns (95)Josephus on the Origin of the State (59)The Libertarian Theology of Freedom (46)The Proper Origin of Rights (44)Top 10 Books for Christian Libertarians &#8211; Christmas 2008 Edition (43)           Dec [...]</p>
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