Thank you for introducing us to Edmund Opitz. Individualism is a vitally important topic. Ultimately, will we not all be judged individually versus collectively?

Thanks for bringing this book to my attention. I also had never heard of Rev. Optiz or his writing. Although I was disappointed that he spent more time criticizing alternative viewpoints than explaining and defending his own, I do think that he had some valuable insights.

For example, in the opening series of letters between John C. Bennett and himself, he asked regarding the possibility of private monopolies, “Can you name an instance of any person or groups possessing an advantage at the expense of someone else where government is not working actively on behalf of the exploiter – or at least passively by neglecting its proper duty of defending all men equally against invasions of their rights?” This is a question that, by cutting the dialogue shot, Bennett never answered. Indeed it is one that I’ve never seen an answer for. It is a philosophical dead end for supporters of state-intervention in economics.

The powerful refrain in Rev. Optiz’s thought seems to be that the moral principles by which individuals are judged should also apply when individuals act on behalf of government; that for the government ethics “cannot be reduced to convenient and inconvenient.” This refrain is seems quite undeniable. It is a shame that more people do not follow this logic.

You make a valid point when you say,

“..in my experience, the people who are “led by the spirit” prove themselves as incapable of getting along with fellow spirit-followers as those who are married to the letter. In fact, adherence to the letter at least keeps the way open to reasoned discourse. They are dogmatic “because it’s written right here…look….see.” If they are reasonable, you can get them to change their mind from error. On the other hand, it’s pretty dang hard to convince somebody whose opinion is based on “because that’s what God told me.” The person could be as reasonable as a logic-text but not be able to change his mind because (and I agree with him) you don’t tell God he’s wrong”.

Based on real-world experiences I’ve had with people who were not dogmatic but still professed a belief in Jesus Christ (definitely not bible inerrantists) you are right on. Free-thinking minds rebel against any sort of external control of their reasoning. But I’ve spent over 43 years as a God-seeker. And the one constant of my search has been trying to understand the reasons for divisions and what would lead to unity.

In the past I’ve visited several Christian communities. I’ve lived in 4 or 5 communes. I’ve also started several communities, one before I was a Christian and one after. And I was invited by a commune turned Christian community, to provide teaching and guidance during their transformation. What I’ve discovered is that the power of God changes the paradigm in favor of love and unity. Of course, I’ve also seen the power of God manifest in the midst of a group of believers and then those in authority began cramming God’s revealed truths through their bible and church filters. This totally destroys the Spirit of liberty that accompanies God’s presence in power.

So, what creates a tipping point for freedom AND a loving unity among spirit-centered believers? This is my short list:

1) FOUNDATIONAL PRINCIPLES, with the community member-owners agreeing to the majority of them (see the principles webpage on my work site, where I was developing my ideas prior to moving them to our membership site: http://www.3circles.net/3ccc/rules.htm);

2) A type of MEDITATION THAT LEADS its practioners TO A GLORY-TO-GLORY TRANSFORMATION EXPERIENCE, as described in II Cor. chapter 3, AND A ONENESS WITH CHRIST AND GOD, as described in John chapter 14 & 17 (one particulary poignant quote: “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as you Father, are in me, and I am in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe you have sent me. And the glory which you gave me, I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one..”). I’ve written an indepth article on this form of meditation; see my blog entry for October 30, 2008 at http://3circles.org/transform

3) LIMITED SUSTAINABLE GROWTH AND A BALANCE-OF-POWERS TYPE GOVERANCE. I believe the best form of government ever created by man (and definitely inspired by God) is our own Constitutional Republic form of government. By inspiring many to adopt this model we can have multiple communities with each community taking on the model of a state, with it’s own elected governor and legislative officials. As to limited growth, Malcolm Gladwell in his book, “The Tipping Point” reveals an uncommon well-known fact shared by the US military and Mennonite communities: 150 is the maximum number of troops or community adults for effective communications; add more people and group cohesiveness breaks down.

A community of like-minded people who agree to a framework of principles, share the importance of meditation for knowing God, limit their growth by dividing and creating new communities, and who are governed fairly by elected officials instead of an elite clique of insiders, that will be a community that breaks free of feigned love and disunity.

Jaired, you also said:

“I’m not sure Leroy has exactly said this, though. He quotes a lot of scripture in what he says. Leroy, do you agree, then, that there is a significant intermixture of the two–the letter tests the spirit and the spirit tests the letter? After all, the letter tells us that we will be known by our fruits, and the letter explains what the fruits of the spirit are. Do you believe, then, that one who is led by the spirit will come to believe that the “fruits” of the spirit are wholey different than the ones mentioned in the Bible, thus leading to the acceptance of others (allegedly led by the spirit) whose fruits are completely alien to the teachings of the Bible?”

Another good point. Yes, I do believe, as it says in Timothy, that much of the Bible is inspired by God and useful for instruction and warning. There is a lot of wisdom there and it would be stupid to abandon searching it just because it is flawed. I also know that regardless of who decided what scriptures should be canon and which should not, regardless of the facts of this unholy alliance between church and state began at the first Council of Nicea, God is still able to work out his ultimate will. Of course, when Christians don’t listen to God, due to our traditions and the stain-glass barrier, centuries can go by without anyone rising up to make a change for the better.

All this is entirely logical. We see in scriptures that upon the landing of hte ark, Noah got drunk as a skunk, yet God still spoke to him. When I was a non-Christian hippy and high on LSD at a Grateful Dead concert at the Fillmore in San Fran, God spoke clearly to me, telling me I had to choose between good and evil or God would totally stop guiding me towards the light.

I like to think of the scriptures as a filter for what God reveals. An imperfect filter but when you want clean water even an imperfect filter will be much appreciated. The key for me is in understanding that unlike most Christians, who filter any revealed truths through the Bible, automatically abandoning those revealed truths if the Bible disagrees, I believe in filtering the Bible through the revealed truths God has given. In most cases I find they agree. But occassionally, they don’t.

Here’s an example. I was a fugitive in Canada, running from a drug bust that happened in the States. I ran for 11 years before coming back to turn myself in. After 4 years as a fugitive I experienced my rebirth in Christ. According to the bible and particularly Paul’s interpretations of rulers (Paul wrongly believed that all rulers were put there by God and must be obeyed) I should immediately return to the states to turn myself into the authorities. The few pastors I did confide in agreed with Paul the apostle’s interpretation. Fortunately for me, I was waiting for God to tell me the right time.

I remember that at one point I was so tired of looking over my shoulder and having my senses constantly on alert that I went to a friend, a Salvation Army leader who just so happened to be a criminal court judge. I figured that by telling him my situation he would immediately call the RCMP. How could he not call the police? Like me he was a father and if the truth ever came out he could permanently lose his position as judge; it would destroy his career and his families income. But to my surprise, he said, “Let me pray about it overnight”. The next day, he told me I was to remain as I was for now but to begin gathering letters of commendation from pastors, doctors, and other prominent people who knew me. It was 5 or more years before it was God’s timing and there is absolutely no doubt it was God’s timing.

Upon returning to the states my lawyer told me to come to the courthouse on a certain day, where I would be arrested, because the judge who was on the bench when I left was the same judge hearing my case and she wanted to make an example of me. Well, God had other plans and I have to assume those letters made the difference, because he called me just as I was driving to the courthouse and told me to come to his office instead. Once I was sitting down he threw me a piece of paper and said, “There’s your ticket to freedom; Nolle Proseque, no prosecution”. I had no record and the slate was wiped clean… as long as I never got in trouble again, which of course, I didn’t.

Finally, you stated:

“If, in truth/fact/reality the Word of God must be assertained by direct conversation with the Holy Spirit and not from the Bible, then that’s the truth. There would then be no common ground that we have as we–who see and understand truth so poorly–seek to find the truth. And so, we make a statement about God: We believe that he has made a common ground for us to work with and has not left us in a position where there is no way to know whether the prophet next door is righteous or demonic. I believe that it makes the most sense for God to operate this way, and this is, in fact, how I believe he operates.”

It was Jesus who told us to get our truth direct, from the Holy Spirit. So how can we go wrong following what Jesus said? Of course, you might question if he said this, so we look for more proof. I find it in the words of his disciples, several of them writing about the very same thing, telling us we have no need of any man to teach us about God. I also find it true based on my own experiences. Moreover, the unity I seek in Christ has manifest itself many times in a most powerful way, helping me to let go of the fear that this way leads to more divisions.

Here’s one example. I was part of a group of 4 who started a Christian community near Middleton, Nova Scotia. Time and again, when there were differences God helped us come to a place of unity. And God’s power was poured out upon us regularly, causing us to shake from time to time, more violently than a person with Parkinson’s who have stopped taking their meds! We also experienced during those times an inabilty to speak. We were truly awestruck by God’s presence. Well, one night soon after our shaking began to calm down, but while still feeling unable to speak for God’s presence, I was given a word of knowledge, that I must go to the house of an acquaintance right now. It was 2 AM but I didn’t hesitate for a second because there was no doubt whatsoever that this was God. As I was putting on my shoes I heard Joe coming down the stairs with his shoes. We looked at each other and knew God spoke to both of us about the exact same thing. Then I looked at our women an knew God had spoken to them too. Still, not one word from anyone.

Joe and I took his car and began driving. After some time the effects of God’s presence were lessened and Joe spoke. He said, “I know this is God’s doing because there is no way I would wake someone up at 2 in the morning”! When we arrived I went up to the bus door (him and his girl lived in the bus) and knocked. A light came on and the guy came to the door. He said, “Yeah, what do you want”. Whereupon I said, “I don’t know. All we know is that God told us to come”. He immediately dropped to his knees and began sobbing. That evening he and his girl had the worst fight of their life and he cried out to God, asking God to send someone to help them.

Now you know why I don’t worry about love or unity in the communities God will help me build.

>1) Were the original church fathers who selected the canon of
>scripture not following their ’spiritual ears’? If not, then were
>they just misguided? Evil? Deluded? Deaf?
>
>If you say they were, in fact, misguided, on what basis do you
>determine that the letters/people they opposed were NOT misguided?
>What I mean to say is that the sword you are using cuts both ways.

Before answering these questions, you need to first understand my unique perspective. It provides the framework for the intrepretations I’ve put forth and why they can be trusted:

a) As a very young man I was an atheist, preferring the existential philosophy of Camus and Satre;

b) I finally met a man of the clothe who not only answered my questions, he annihilated my atheistic reasoning in less than an hour;

c) This new found belief, that nature was my God, led me to investigate the eastern religions. After meditating and feeling empowered and an increased awareness I concluded there is a possibility God is beyond our visible universe and invisible. But most of my knowledge of God was still based on what others said about God.

d) I decided to take Jesus at his word, when he said no one could see the kingdom of God unless they first became as a little child, reborn a second time by the Spirit of God. This led to my own spiritual rebirth and in one instant it provided more first hand knowledge of God then in all my years of eastern type meditation. How I thought, what I valued and even my most basic understanding of love changed in an instant, shattering forever the eastern religious premise that as a criminal I would have to spend lifetimes overcoming my criminal mindset in order to be enlightened. I was enlightened in an instant and now had first hand, knowledge of God (albeit earth-bound knowledge), not just book learning about God.

e) I also took Jesus at his word when he told his followers he was leaving his Holy Spirit to be their spiritual guide and lead them into all truth. His disciples reinforced this by telling new converts, “But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. ” (I John 2:27). So, rather than attend bible college, which I had a deep desire to do, I took this giant leap of faith. I believed I could sit at the feet of God and through the empoweing Holy Spirit, receive God’s word for today, directly from God.

f) In the parable of the sower Jesus forewarned his followers that there were many ways in which one’s new spiritual growth could be destroyed. He especially warned against becoming learned idiots like the Parisees. They were the educated elite. They knew everything there was to know ABOUT God, but they didn’t KNOW God. They valued the opinions of other men more then they valued truth and righteousness. Jesus told us, “beware the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy”. The Pharisee’s focus on scripture and determining the right interpretations fed their desire for intellectual gamemanship. This externalization of the Spirit realm was the true source of their hypocrisy, for it circumvented Christ’s call to adide in his spirit, so that through unity with him and his Father God, we would KNOW that same love that leads to love among the brethren first, then social justice towards others. Pardoxically, through the establishment of countless seminaries and bible colleges we find an educated elite in charge of the Christian religion today, and every Christian denomination in the world today has as its primary focus the “right” interpretation of scriptures. Which is all the more reason that we should heed the warning of Jesus, “you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.”

g) I believe that it was as a result of my sold-out-to-God, do anything or go anywhere attitude, that God decided to take me to heaven so I would have first hand knowledge of life on the other side (my experience is recorded here: http://3circles.net/heaven). I’ve read many, many experiences of people having NDE’s (Near Death Experiences) but never in my entire life have I read of one person who was fully conscious and in no physical or mental stress whatever, being taken to heaven. In heaven I was told of God’s plan, that he had a work for me to do, but the most important thing I learned was this, that no person on earth has ever seen God and no flesh could ever contain God’s power (the link above explains the reasons).

So, to answer your question about these early church fathers who selected the scriptures we have today, as to whether or not they were misguided, deluded or evil, I can come to only one conclusion after reading the historical context, after considering their own words about what they valued and after looking at the subsequent actions they put into effect, to assure ONLY their canonization was the one chosen: ALL THE ABOVE.

Historically the first council of Nicea in 325 AD was only the first of many councils. I believe the final council, which gave us the 27 books we today know as the New Testament, was 383 AD.

If I remember correctly, this first council went on for about a month. Given the long distances the Bishops had to travel, this was necessary. But remember who it was that called this meeting in the first place, it was the Roman Emperor, Constantine. it is widely reported that Constantine saw a vision and accepted Christ into his heart. What they fail to tell you is he refused to demonstrate this faith to the Roamn world by refusing to be baptised until many decades later, upon his deathbed! Actions speak more to the truth than words.

History reveals that paganism was waning in the Roman empire of the 4th century. He saw in Christianity a new hope for uniting his people. Also, keep in mind that ONLY Bishops were invited. There were many Christian sects but only the Roman Catholic and Orthodox branches (which back then had not yet divided and were one and the same) had bishops. This is no accident. They were the ones who desired power, just as Constantine did. When I read the 2 century accounts of Justin Martyr I learned that many Christians of his day continued to live in Act 2 type communities. But community living is diametrically opposed to institutional Christianity, with its pomp and circumstance and a strict heirarchy among learned priests. Which is why Constantine didn’t invite any other Christian sects. However, he DID invite many prominent pagans, who were in attendance at the Council of Nicea. If the Council of Nicea was the idea of the Church and it was the church that called the meeting (as Chrisitians proclaim) do you think they would have invited Pagans? Of course not. History is not on the side of a sanctified church gathering called to meeting by the Church and with God in control.

You may wonder about my labeling these men as “evil”. But keep in mind I’m talking in generalities here. There were hundreds in attendance and I can’t testify to the character of each man. However, the results of these councils is clear. History reveals that they led to a uniting of Church and State. This unholy alliance brought the church material benefits (new churches subsidized and built by the Roman government) and power (the State’s power over life led to Rome rubber stamping the Catholic churches decrees). There were decrees to burn books that were not canonized and decrees of excommunication. But this power later led to decrees of death to anyone who oppossed them. For instance, there were decrees that forbade harboring scriptures that were not canonized and the punishment for doing so was to be burned at the stake with the non-canon scriptures they were protecting.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t buy the churches argument that this excess was necessary for that day and age. When was censorship of any kind something to be praised, let alone censorship that decreed death to anyone who disobeyed? One of the most egregious facts I came across was that some of the Bishops who directly participated in this barbarism have since been crowned as “Saints” by the Catholic church!

>
>2) If your ’spiritual ears’ are your ultimate authority in life,
>whose to say that David Koresh, Phelps or any of the others who have
>gone way off base are actually off base? Off what base would they be
>off of, exactly, when the standard is subjectively determined?

Here is an interesting fact: With few exceptions, the so-called men of God who end up as cult leaders have a few things in common: 1) they are narcissistic, ego-centric and must be in control; 2) They are fundamentalists, Pharisees, learned idiots, focusing on the scriptures as the inerrant, infallible word of God.

The one notable exception that comes to mind is Jim Jones of “People’s Temple” infamy. That’s where the saying originated, “Drinking kool-aid” as he brainwashed over 500 people to go with him to a so-called tropical paradise and then convinced them all to drink poisoned kool-aid. Those who refused to drink were forced to do so at gun point. Anyway, I’m not sure about his theology but from what little I’ve read he was a drug and sex addict who used scripture, sex and drugs to manipulate his flock. He was just plain evil.

What I’m advocating, the necessity of community, is balanced by our form of government, which is modeled after our own consitutional republic. There will be elections and a non-violent, easy transfer of power. I have no desire to always be the head honcho who remains in power until he dies!

Additionally, by preaching that Spiritual unity and love are far more important than theological differences and that this unity and love flows from God to every believer who takes the time to learn how to abide in Christ through meditation, members of our church communities will getting this same love and unity direct from the source. They won’t be trying to force others to believe exactly as they do.

However, I do acknowledge that beliefs are important. Just not asimportant as love and unity. From my experience I see that all divisions result from theological differences. By shifting the focus to love and unity, by teaching every member how to go to the source of all love and unity and obtain it for themselves, we will have in place the tools to assure a good measure of harmony.

>3) If you aren’t getting your knowledge of who Christ is out of the
>scriptures in the New Testament, where are you getting them from? If
>it is some other source, isn’t it even easier to apply the same
>standards of evaluation to their legitimacy?

I think this has been answered above. Read Chapter 3 of II Corinthians in it’s entirety and pay especial attention to those parts where it talks about the “vail upon the heart”; “the letter kills but the spirit gives life”; “where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”.

Leroy