You could call that the “Robinhood Justification” of Big Government.

JDB

You could call that the “Robinhood Justification” of Big Government.

JDB

Well, I’m inclined to fib, I guess; writing some more. Sorry.

What if Christian libertarians actually put out workable ideas for programs that would appeal to everyone currently fed up with and (rightfully!) suspicious of our government?

Proposals/plans for making sure there is little to no “collateral damage” if we WERE actually to get rid of big government, especially its fuel, income taxes?

What happens to all those government workers, civil and military? We’re not getting traction because too many people actually do depend on government and would lose everything if it were dismantled. This is in addition to those people I’ve been talking about who truly cannot take care of themselves.

Until those people can be convinced that fending for themselves is actually viable and in their best interests — material benefits — this isn’t going to change.

If some really smart and knowledgeable people put out there in the blogosphere and it blossoms into other media, and through word-of-mouth, ideas for programs and plans that could even now be begun and that would only increase in benefits, efficiency, suitability, more people would join the movement to repeal the 16th Amendment, end the Fed, and abolish the IRS.

I believe it could all be done at the local/community level, but there must be viable plans/programs to staff and fund and sustain these needed services.

If the proposals/ideas are good enough, they’d spread like wildfire on the Internet. I think that’s all it would take. Then the revolution would have no excuse for not happening!

Well, I’m inclined to fib, I guess; writing some more. Sorry.

What if Christian libertarians actually put out workable ideas for programs that would appeal to everyone currently fed up with and (rightfully!) suspicious of our government?

Proposals/plans for making sure there is little to no “collateral damage” if we WERE actually to get rid of big government, especially its fuel, income taxes?

What happens to all those government workers, civil and military? We’re not getting traction because too many people actually do depend on government and would lose everything if it were dismantled. This is in addition to those people I’ve been talking about who truly cannot take care of themselves.

Until those people can be convinced that fending for themselves is actually viable and in their best interests — material benefits — this isn’t going to change.

If some really smart and knowledgeable people put out there in the blogosphere and it blossoms into other media, and through word-of-mouth, ideas for programs and plans that could even now be begun and that would only increase in benefits, efficiency, suitability, more people would join the movement to repeal the 16th Amendment, end the Fed, and abolish the IRS.

I believe it could all be done at the local/community level, but there must be viable plans/programs to staff and fund and sustain these needed services.

If the proposals/ideas are good enough, they’d spread like wildfire on the Internet. I think that’s all it would take. Then the revolution would have no excuse for not happening!

Sorry I haven’t visited in a few days . . . life, you know.

Sounds like Mr. Hodgkins will have some workable solutions. His thesis should be a veritable gold mine.

If we got rid of the 16th Amendment, the Fed, and the IRS, charitable deductions/non-profits would cease to exist, as they should. Congressman Ron Paul has often written about his experiences as a doctor affiliated with a hospital and how they handled indigent cases. Why is that so hard to do today? Because government wants control and every penny they can steal.

In the past, wasn’t it mainly Catholic charities that pioneered and carried most of the burdens of helping those who cannot help themselves? Convents and monasteries were the major players . . . starting hospitals, refuges, shelters, hospices . . .

Where are the Protestants willing to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their Catholic brethren to pick up the slack, who now grudgingly write checks to get back their tax deductions for “being good”? And, ironically, the government has just begun to deny those very tax deductions!

Will there be Christians to pick up the pieces without demanding money back from their “donations,” and without demanding their names be plastered all over the place so people — especially those who must use their “services” and facilities — will know who their “benefactors” are (people, and not God)?

Where are those Christians who will love and serve simply because Jesus said to, without needing credit or tax deductions for it in return? Who will give freely and cheerfully to those in need, rather than to a church; offerings RATHER THAN a fixed “tithe”?

Where are those Christians who will support those who must devote full time to helping those who cannot help themselves?

And what about qualified Christians who would further Christ’s love and principles in treatments and programs, rather than the overwhelming majority of today’s secular philosophies and goals?

I ask the question because it seems to me if there were more orthodox Christians in these fields, there would not be the woefully lopsided majority of secularists in all the helping fields today. We let it go; it’s gone. What will happen if our revolution succeeds? Who will recruit/replace/moderate the needed, qualified, experienced but misguided people dominating the helping fields?

And who will stand against the perfectly rational pragmatists advocating euthanasia as a valid means of sustaining an equitable libertarian society? If you’re truly a libertarian, then no one should have power over life and death — and yet libertarianism is also the ultimate utilitarian philosophy. Practical and economic factors, if not enclosed in and checked by a species-specific and Christian humane philosophy, will demand society decide whose life is productively and economically sustainable and whose is not and should not be further supported.

This is anathema to Christianity. And to humanity.

Accidents happen without getting permission first. Some of us are born into this world unable ever to take care of oneself. If not killed by an accident first, we all get old and die, and should be able to without getting permission to.

But even now all that’s changing.

What worries me is that the vast majority of today’s Christians have no idea what the Bible really says, what Jesus said, what our Christian history is, how we really got to where we are, and chillingly, they really don’t care. And without this knowledge and understanding, there cannot possibly be a civil, Christian society, no matter if it’s truly a libertarian society.

With the upheaval of abolishing big government, with our economy truly in the tank, who’s going to have the time, much less the money (what money?!), to take care of others? In the dust kicked up in the struggle, who will see those who are already fallen — and who truly CAN’T get up?

While it is right and true that every human being, bearing the image of the Creator Himself, is entitled to the freedom to be left alone by others, as long as he does no harm to others, it is also true that God Himself expects those who call themselves by His Name and are able to use that freedom to help and carry the burdens of others — who equally bear His image.

But where is that teaching among Christian libertarians, or even in our churches today?

Just as there are the more “popular,” known sins of commission (among them the philosophy that human government should be given the power to regulate all facets of life, dictate and tax), there are equally heinous sins of OMISSION. This is first and foremost concerned with neglecting our needy and helpless brothers, neighbors, even enemies.

It is the sin of omission that has given us the government we have today: through it we have more convenient, and distant, ways of helping others; we don’t have to do it ourselves. It enables us to not have to be concerned except in the most remote and abstract ways about others.

What was Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan all about? And then, when asked (incredibly!) “What should we then do?” Jesus replied, “Go, and do likewise.”

Isn’t this the gist of the Gospels? The Great Commission? Jesus’ own sacrifice?

Looking out for others . . . first.

Otherwise, we would have no remedy for our sin and damnation. We would all have fallen through the eternal cracks, with absolutely no recourse. After all, God is the first and ultimate libertarian. He is obligated to no one for anything.

Yet He created us, to love and to love Him in return. And when we didn’t, He yet intervened for us so if we to choose we can. He carried our burden. He personally saw to it we don’t have to fall through the eternal cracks.

Your kind offer: Please forgive me for copping out on you; I’m not qualified to write about this stuff further. I have no knowledge or expertise in any field dealing with any of this. I simply have SOME observations, from a very limited perspective. You know, the old “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”? I also have a thin skin, and readily admit I couldn’t handle all the upbraidings and criticisms that would (rightly?) be aimed at me. I’m very opinionated about a lot of stuff, but perhaps not well equipped to deal with differing opinions, especially when demands are — justifiably — made to bell the cat, which I can’t.

You’re welcome to use anything you think is of value that I’ve written, and you don’t need to mention my name specifically to glean the important issues and ideas and get them out there. If anything is of value, just throw out there what’s needed or calculated to spark thought and ideas; that would be enough.

A revolution with no follow-up is analogous to shooting oneself in the foot (you have a deadly weapon, it makes a great deal of noise, and inflicts crippling pain, but . . . !); that is what I meant to point out.

I want the revolution because of the promise of the follow-up, but I see nowhere anyone addressing the follow-up, only of somehow doing the revolting.

Is Christian libertarianism merely survival of the fittest with “Christ” tacked on to make it more palatable to some frustrated Christians, or does it matter which is first: libertarian, or Christian?

Libertarianism, pure, has no obligations or duties to anything or anyone else but to self. (And I am convinced this is the major reason there aren’t more “converts;” most people recognize we DO have duties to others, and that self ISN’T all there is.)

Christianity is all about obligations and duties, first to God/Jesus Christ, then to the rest of mankind. (But Christianity has been used as an excuse to force others into obligations that aren’t rightfully theirs, both at the end of a gun and through oppressive and unjust laws. And now it’s payback time!)

I believe elements of the two can be harmonized, but we who are Christian need to do that now, and prepare for a future of freedom and liberty, given as our unalienable birthright by God, unfettered, yet with some God-ordained and needful obligations and duties as well.

It doesn’t have to be one or the other (except for those who are not Christian; this is a good way of discerning true Christians from all others). And for Christians, it must not be. But Christians must be thinking and talking about this. And if unnecessary collateral damage is to be avoided (along with the necessary condemnation it will bring on our own heads), we MUST take the innovative lead in all the discussions, and propose and make real viable plans in preparation for a new civil society based on the sanctity and protection of life, liberty, property, justice, and Christian — voluntary and positive — love.

Sorry I haven’t visited in a few days . . . life, you know.

Sounds like Mr. Hodgkins will have some workable solutions. His thesis should be a veritable gold mine.

If we got rid of the 16th Amendment, the Fed, and the IRS, charitable deductions/non-profits would cease to exist, as they should. Congressman Ron Paul has often written about his experiences as a doctor affiliated with a hospital and how they handled indigent cases. Why is that so hard to do today? Because government wants control and every penny they can steal.

In the past, wasn’t it mainly Catholic charities that pioneered and carried most of the burdens of helping those who cannot help themselves? Convents and monasteries were the major players . . . starting hospitals, refuges, shelters, hospices . . .

Where are the Protestants willing to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their Catholic brethren to pick up the slack, who now grudgingly write checks to get back their tax deductions for “being good”? And, ironically, the government has just begun to deny those very tax deductions!

Will there be Christians to pick up the pieces without demanding money back from their “donations,” and without demanding their names be plastered all over the place so people — especially those who must use their “services” and facilities — will know who their “benefactors” are (people, and not God)?

Where are those Christians who will love and serve simply because Jesus said to, without needing credit or tax deductions for it in return? Who will give freely and cheerfully to those in need, rather than to a church; offerings RATHER THAN a fixed “tithe”?

Where are those Christians who will support those who must devote full time to helping those who cannot help themselves?

And what about qualified Christians who would further Christ’s love and principles in treatments and programs, rather than the overwhelming majority of today’s secular philosophies and goals?

I ask the question because it seems to me if there were more orthodox Christians in these fields, there would not be the woefully lopsided majority of secularists in all the helping fields today. We let it go; it’s gone. What will happen if our revolution succeeds? Who will recruit/replace/moderate the needed, qualified, experienced but misguided people dominating the helping fields?

And who will stand against the perfectly rational pragmatists advocating euthanasia as a valid means of sustaining an equitable libertarian society? If you’re truly a libertarian, then no one should have power over life and death — and yet libertarianism is also the ultimate utilitarian philosophy. Practical and economic factors, if not enclosed in and checked by a species-specific and Christian humane philosophy, will demand society decide whose life is productively and economically sustainable and whose is not and should not be further supported.

This is anathema to Christianity. And to humanity.

Accidents happen without getting permission first. Some of us are born into this world unable ever to take care of oneself. If not killed by an accident first, we all get old and die, and should be able to without getting permission to.

But even now all that’s changing.

What worries me is that the vast majority of today’s Christians have no idea what the Bible really says, what Jesus said, what our Christian history is, how we really got to where we are, and chillingly, they really don’t care. And without this knowledge and understanding, there cannot possibly be a civil, Christian society, no matter if it’s truly a libertarian society.

With the upheaval of abolishing big government, with our economy truly in the tank, who’s going to have the time, much less the money (what money?!), to take care of others? In the dust kicked up in the struggle, who will see those who are already fallen — and who truly CAN’T get up?

While it is right and true that every human being, bearing the image of the Creator Himself, is entitled to the freedom to be left alone by others, as long as he does no harm to others, it is also true that God Himself expects those who call themselves by His Name and are able to use that freedom to help and carry the burdens of others — who equally bear His image.

But where is that teaching among Christian libertarians, or even in our churches today?

Just as there are the more “popular,” known sins of commission (among them the philosophy that human government should be given the power to regulate all facets of life, dictate and tax), there are equally heinous sins of OMISSION. This is first and foremost concerned with neglecting our needy and helpless brothers, neighbors, even enemies.

It is the sin of omission that has given us the government we have today: through it we have more convenient, and distant, ways of helping others; we don’t have to do it ourselves. It enables us to not have to be concerned except in the most remote and abstract ways about others.

What was Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan all about? And then, when asked (incredibly!) “What should we then do?” Jesus replied, “Go, and do likewise.”

Isn’t this the gist of the Gospels? The Great Commission? Jesus’ own sacrifice?

Looking out for others . . . first.

Otherwise, we would have no remedy for our sin and damnation. We would all have fallen through the eternal cracks, with absolutely no recourse. After all, God is the first and ultimate libertarian. He is obligated to no one for anything.

Yet He created us, to love and to love Him in return. And when we didn’t, He yet intervened for us so if we to choose we can. He carried our burden. He personally saw to it we don’t have to fall through the eternal cracks.

Your kind offer: Please forgive me for copping out on you; I’m not qualified to write about this stuff further. I have no knowledge or expertise in any field dealing with any of this. I simply have SOME observations, from a very limited perspective. You know, the old “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”? I also have a thin skin, and readily admit I couldn’t handle all the upbraidings and criticisms that would (rightly?) be aimed at me. I’m very opinionated about a lot of stuff, but perhaps not well equipped to deal with differing opinions, especially when demands are — justifiably — made to bell the cat, which I can’t.

You’re welcome to use anything you think is of value that I’ve written, and you don’t need to mention my name specifically to glean the important issues and ideas and get them out there. If anything is of value, just throw out there what’s needed or calculated to spark thought and ideas; that would be enough.

A revolution with no follow-up is analogous to shooting oneself in the foot (you have a deadly weapon, it makes a great deal of noise, and inflicts crippling pain, but . . . !); that is what I meant to point out.

I want the revolution because of the promise of the follow-up, but I see nowhere anyone addressing the follow-up, only of somehow doing the revolting.

Is Christian libertarianism merely survival of the fittest with “Christ” tacked on to make it more palatable to some frustrated Christians, or does it matter which is first: libertarian, or Christian?

Libertarianism, pure, has no obligations or duties to anything or anyone else but to self. (And I am convinced this is the major reason there aren’t more “converts;” most people recognize we DO have duties to others, and that self ISN’T all there is.)

Christianity is all about obligations and duties, first to God/Jesus Christ, then to the rest of mankind. (But Christianity has been used as an excuse to force others into obligations that aren’t rightfully theirs, both at the end of a gun and through oppressive and unjust laws. And now it’s payback time!)

I believe elements of the two can be harmonized, but we who are Christian need to do that now, and prepare for a future of freedom and liberty, given as our unalienable birthright by God, unfettered, yet with some God-ordained and needful obligations and duties as well.

It doesn’t have to be one or the other (except for those who are not Christian; this is a good way of discerning true Christians from all others). And for Christians, it must not be. But Christians must be thinking and talking about this. And if unnecessary collateral damage is to be avoided (along with the necessary condemnation it will bring on our own heads), we MUST take the innovative lead in all the discussions, and propose and make real viable plans in preparation for a new civil society based on the sanctity and protection of life, liberty, property, justice, and Christian — voluntary and positive — love.

My initial answer is a quite honest, “I am not sure.” Keep in mind that I didn’t say *no one* can predict or understand how benevolent organizations will emerge in the free market, but rather that *we*, by that I mean *you and I*, may not understand/predict how it will happen – at least not in full. But even right after that, I said that we can recognize from history that these things DID emerge, meaning we can LEARN from history. Have I, personally, studied this in detail? Nope, sure haven’t.

I do know of a gentleman named Kevin Hodgkins at Univ. of Alabama is writing his dissertation on non-profits and argues that the “third sector” is a contrivance of the State. He is well versed in the history of charitable organizations. I should see if I still have his paper…

I don’t know if Christians are prepared. At this moment, if we had our druthers and could push the big red button to vaporize the state, I kind of doubt it. But again, I’m not certain. Christians throughout history have risen to the occasion to help needy people.

You are right, we need to be thinking about such things, just like we should try to figure out how to provide services that the State normally runs for the future libertarian society as well.

Tell you what, would you be interested in writing about some of this stuff further? I think these comments, briefly edited, would actually make a thought-provoking blog post here at LCC, maybe even at LewRockwell.com. Opening up this conversation to others would probably be worthwhile. Perhaps after that we could write an article together with some more elaboration about what those charitable organizations would look like? How does that sound to you?

Thank you again. And thanks for clearing up the implication of my naivete.

I agree absolutely that government — especially at the point of a gun — cannot (and adamantly MUST NOT!) force “charity.”

That is not my point; I’m not looking for government to do that which Christians should be doing.

I’m simply asking if anyone’s thought about the implications of pure individualism, and if anyone’s thought about how to avoid the inevitable fallout from abruptly withdrawing government from those areas.

Without the funds present through taxation of those who otherwise would not voluntarily give to charity or care for anyone else, Christians will have to carry that burden.

Are Christians prepared?

My concern is that those people who cannot care for themselves NOT “fall through the cracks” because Christians didn’t look ahead and plan ahead to make sure that doesn’t happen to those people helplessly at their mercy.

Now is the time, I believe, to be floating those ideas and plans. That is what I’m suggesting.

Yeah, I’d bell the cat, except I don’t have bells, strings, or any other means myself (to say nothing of being able to evade the teeth and claws), which is why I’m concerned about those people like some family members otherwise slated to be collateral damage — to fall through the cracks. If I can’t care for them, and the extorted money to do it is removed, and the Christian community doesn’t seem to have a clue, who will?

Balderdash on no one can predict or understand how benevolent organizations will emerge in the free market. There’s plenty of precedent to learn from and build on.

Is anyone doing that, in anticipation of freedom from government coercion and taxation?

Are there any plans to seal up the cracks? That’s the question. WHY should anyone HAVE to fall through the cracks?